Gwen, an apology

[galadriel1010]

A few of my friends recently have posted in their journals about the amount of anti-Gwen vitriol that they've seen, and wondering why there is so much.

So I, being me, replied, explained why I didn't like her and tried to join the discussion.

I didn't realise it was a rhetorical question. Nor did I realise that there's been a lot of anti-Gwen stuff around, because the fandom places I hang out in are Twitter and my flist. This does not cover any of the major non-fic communities or AGA. I had no idea it was going on. So when I saw stuff in my flist asking why people dislike Gwen... I thought they were honestly asking.

Being lonely, bored and procrastinating, I felt like answering it.

So, basically, I didn't know the context, and I apologise for joining in where I shouldn't have. Apparently the fandom is full of Gwen hate that people on my flist don't want to see. My flist is mostly full of people who like Gwen, and I keep feeling like I have to justify my dislike. I shouldn't feel like I have to, and I shouldn't try. So I'll stop.

ETA: I don't think most of the people I'm apologising to are actually friends with me, so they won't see this.

Comments

[sanginmychains.livejournal.com]

I think being entirely unaware of the wank is the preferable position. Sorry if you caught some of the spatter, though.

I usually only know that there's wank going on because of the spatter. I feel like the CSI of the TW fandom. "Well, the spray seems to have originated from the left, and the pattern indicates that an artery was hit...but this bit over here results from blunt force trauma."

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I've not had time to be aware of anything for the last few months. It's been hard enough to keep up on what people are doing in their real lives to even contemplate looking at the comms. Besides, I don't want to have anything to do with S4, so the main comms are not the right place for me to be; I'm being left behind, and I'm not going to go into the main ness and try to hold other people back when they want to more forwards. I'll miss them, and I'll miss feeling a part of it, but that's what happens if we can't move on.

[idamus.livejournal.com]

While I don't like either Gwen or Owen I don't like bashing either, I just stay away from fics with either character as the main focus, works fine ;)

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I avoid it too, which is probably how I managed to be unaware of the wank. I did read a couple of pocky_slash's Gwen+Ianto friendship stories, because she's such a superb writer, but they made me intensely uncomfortable.
It's a bit like going to the pub with your best friend and her other best friend, who you hate and can't understand why your best friend likes. You either tunnel out early, or get uproriously pissed.

[idamus.livejournal.com]

By the way, you don't have to apologize for not liking a character, we're all different and has different opinions

Ah yes, tried a pocky_slash big_bang, great plot, but I can't wrap my head around Gwen being friends with a team member

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I'm quite a confrontational personality, not because I feel the need to attack or defend or anything, but because my brother and I fought constantly when we were growing up (still do) so I see argument as a healthy thing and a good way to communicate and share opinions, especially where there are differing opinions and a tension in the relationship (like there is between me and the brother).

Other people, of course, see me being confrontational and argumentative as me being... confrontational and argumentative.

Ah yes, tried a pocky_slash big_bang, great plot, but I can't wrap my head around Gwen being friends with a team member
I can see her trying and possibly thinking that she's succeeded with Tosh and with S1 Ianto, because she seems like the person who'd drag you along to all sorts of things and never actually ask if you wanted to go or if you were enjoying yourself, and they wouldn't be the sort to tell her no.
But I can't believe mutual relationships between them. Partly because they were friends in Adam, which I've always seen as a sort of reverse of everything. Jack and Ianto haven't been Weevil hunting for a long time, Owen's a geek, Tosh is a sultry fox, Gwen's forgotten Rhys, Ianto and Gwen are friends. There's definitely a pattern there.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Sneak away!

Yeah, I really can't see her being in character with the show and still have Ianto friends with her. They're just chalk and cheese, and their close working relationship would destroy any chance of friendship. Opposites attract, but not when you can spend 24+ hours with someone in one go.

I think Gwen could have been a truly brilliant character if they'd made her (knowingly) a bit more bitchy and manipulative. No one said that good characters have to be nice ones.

[teleens-journal.livejournal.com]

I'll join you in saying that I didn't know about the wank until someone pointed me towards it, :(.

I don't like Gwen. Never have, never will and I'll admit to being a part of the antigwenallies community simply because I want a safe space where I can express my dislike. I don't agree with everything they do over there (excessive bashing just to bash is not my thing at all), but they also have stories and meta there that are just Gwen-free, which makes me happy, :).

I don't care for having to justify my dislike or being told that I'm anti-feminist for not liking her. I don't think it's cool to write a story just to bash her, but I do sometimes read stories that write her in-character, which can also be seen as bashing sometimes, *headdesk*.

For the most part, though, I seem to be like you - I just avoid places that are pro-Gwen and don't read Gwen-centric fic unless it's by an author I really like...

*hugs*

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

*Hugs* I'm sure there is a safe place in fandom where no one is every offended or has cause to be upset or angry. I think it's called schmoop_bingo.

Damnit, self, get writing!

I also don't like the anti-feminist label. Apparently I don't like her because she's a woman, which is weird as most of my favourite characters are women.

CSI: Catherine is fabulous, and the only character I love nearly as much as her is Greg. Wendy is similarly awesome, and my favourite character in the entire canon is Lady Heather

CSI NY: Favourite character is Lindsay

NCIS: Abby

Harry Potter: Hermione and Luna

His Dark Materials: Serafina Pekkola

Jasper Fforde: Thursday, Wednesday and Pandora

Lord of the Rings: Galadriel (what a surprise).

Doctor Who: Donna, River Song, Amy, Sally Sparrow, Nancy (just realised that all my favourite Doctor Who women, apart from Donna, are created by Moffat. Aren't we supposed to hate his female characters?) And jack, who is not female, but is my favourite Doctor Who character of all time.

Old Doctor Who: Ace, Brigadier Bambera, the woman who takes over at the end of Caves of Androzani...

Torchwood: Ianto and Jack.

Seems I just don't like RTD's women. And as she's the candy cutter version of RTD's women... of course I don't like her.

Also slightly embarassed that that is an exhaustive list of the things I like that have women in them. The only other things I like with a regular crew are Top Gear and... nope, Top Gear is it.

Tl;dr: RTD does not write female characters I can like. Jackie was quite fun, though

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

He doesn't write women well, especailly leading women. They all seem to define themselves by where they fit into their men's lives. Unlike Amy, who defines her men by where they fit into her life.

He only has about six characters in total, and they just come around with different faces. He used them all in Torchwood, some twice (Rhys and Andy, for example. Jack and Jack. Dianne and Suzie)

[madder-rose.livejournal.com]

Sorry you got caught up in that too but the fringe is nice, stay there ;) Less ANGREY I suppose. *waggles eyebrows*

It's less the fans who just don't care for Gwen, like yourself, but the ones who call her a harpy, liar, cheater, ho, basically say that she's setting a bad standard for women (hello honour culture methods) and aiming it at Eve Myles as well.

Stay happy!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Lols. The fringe is nice. I wish I'd joined in the middle earlier, but the middle now is S4 stuff and... yeah, I don't belong there. If I'd known what would come after Exit Wounds, I would have been a lot more upset about it.

[madder-rose.livejournal.com]

Stay there and cuddle with the rest of the normal folk! Funny though, the anger and RAEG only made me care less about CoE's events. I was all set to be angry but then shit hit the fan and now I'm all Zen about it.

It's bizarre.

[madder-rose.livejournal.com]

Uhhh Zen as in: I'm calm until some asshat ragey-explodes (either side) and then I have to get my jijitsu on. Or however they spell it..

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Lol! Yeah, I got a bit caught up in it. I just got so angry on an 'I am interested in marketing and this level of fail enrages me' level.

[ms-bekahrose.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

You'll never have to justify why you don't like Gwen, at least, to me.

I can understand both sides of the coin - there's a character in one of my fandoms who I could quite happily watch DIAF, kthnxbai - and I have received some serious hate-email because I dislike him so much. *shrugs* if we all liked the same characters/things/foods/places, the world would be an incredibly boring, boring place. - BUT, my "character hate" does not, and will never, flow over into the Real World... ever. Recently saw some mega-Ianto/GDL bashing that made me feel quite ashamed for the people who wrote it...

I like Gwen - she's not my favourite character, and she's not the one I identify with the most (hello Tosh and Ianto!), but that doesn't mean I'm going to "unfriend" or ball out anyone who doesn't like her.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I like to think that I'm reasonably well-balanced about my dislike. I think she's a horrible person (not a bad character, just a person I wouldn't want to call a friend), but I don't (often) go out of my way to bash her - I'd much rather ignore that she exists. Occasionally something will come up, usually it'll be something pro-Gwen, that will push me into having a rant about her, but mostly I'm content to pretend that the Retcon held.

[ms-bekahrose.livejournal.com]

That's a fair call. I'm the same with the character from another fandom. If I can, I'll write around him, or conveniently have him away and doing other stuff "behind the scenes". I've only ever killed him off once.

I think some of the staunchest Gwen-Fans really need to take a long, hard look in the mirror when it comes to their uproar over Gwen-Bashing, and maybe, make sure that they take a page out of their own books when it comes to other characters.

I can spell, honestly!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I have a feeling that Gwen might get killed off in one of my series. Well, I know that she does, but I have yet to work out how and when. It's a proper Torchwood death, though

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I always seem to miss this stuff, I think I must look at the wrong comms or something. I certainly haven't seen any of it.

Thing is, I really don't get why fans get on their high horse so much, but then I think it's because a lot of them are like comic book guy on The Simpsons, that personality type where you have no insight at all and take it all way too seriously. It seems to me that it's perfectly normal to dislike any character, and in fact a good thing, because it makes it more interesting. Series 1 Owen isn't likeable, but people don't get all upset about that. I think RTD and the producers didn't help by going on about her all the time, and I do think there is a strong resentment that RTD just went ahead and killed everyone who wasn't Gwen, which can feel a bit spiteful.

I'm meh about Gwen, unfortunately both JB and EM are weaker actors than the others, so Jack and Gwen scenes often make me cringe with the histrionics. The one where she shows him her engagement ring makes me die it's so awful. I can't watch it.

The other thing that occurs to me is that there is never an outcry about the fans who are into Jack/Gwen and bash Ianto in a way that I think is frankly weird. I came across a meta on one of these fans journals, and she and a lot of her friends were calling Ianto "that thing" and saying how happy they were that he was dead because "that thing is off my screen" . I was quite shocked, if fans were posting that about Gwen it would cause a huge row.

And isn't the cricket briliant!

[ms-bekahrose.livejournal.com]

Sorry to be jumping in, but...

The other thing that occurs to me is that there is never an outcry about the fans who are into Jack/Gwen and bash Ianto in a way that I think is frankly weird.

I think we read the same thing, or at least something that is similar. I was hauled over the coals recently for not having enough Gwen in a Tosh-centric fic, and found out later that one of the people who accused me of bashing Gwen, wrote a fic, where, not just the fic, but all of the reviews bashed Ianto *and* GDL, I just... sometimes the hypocrisy makes me flail like a flailing thing...

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Oh that is quite an amazing amount of hypocrisy, and I really hate it when they bash the actors themselves. I mean not for their acting, because that is a matter of opinion, but it's a bit scary and stalkery when it goes beyond that.

Having said I hadn't seen it, I just came across all the stuff this post is about. Like I say, people really do take it all way too seriously. I like discussions and meta, but it's when people get personal that it becomes unhealthy, which is what bothered me when I discovered there is a whole lot of Ianto bashing out there. Now in a way, it's like the AGA, if people want to keep the bashing to their journals or comms, fine, and to be fair the Ianto bashers do this, but as you said, there is no need for it to then go onto your story.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I think I know who you mean... There's someone who's pretty famous for it anyway, and mostly ignored because it's easier than engaging.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I think Gwen's biggest problem really is RTD. And the fact that she's the one who shows more emotion, so she comes across as thinking of herself when the others are hurting just as much because she's the only one who vocalises it.

There are some really vitriolic anti-Ianto people, but I think it's a bit like anti-Christan stuff in a lot of places (got into a huge argument about this, not trying to start it again) where it's seen as sort of okay, because it's bashing the dominant trend, so it's not as damaging or something. Possibly even it's justified because of the anti-Gwen attitudes of some Ianto fans.

And the cricket is superb, I'm now gutted that I didn't go with my instinct and head down there for the morning. Will probably go to day 1 of Sydney instead.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Of course, gosh that was something I hadn't thought of. You are absolutely right. I was reading some of the stuff which prompted your post, and noticed people were saying "go and hang out at Torchwood decaf" and I had never heard of the comm, so I had a look, and it's a comm for anything that isn't Jack/Ianto. Which is fine of course, but clearly feeling the need to set up such a comm when there are general comms to post to shows that some people feel J/I is too dominant. It's kind of daft of course because it's canon, but there you go.

So yes it's OK to "bash" Ianto, or J/I as a pairing, because anything else feels like an oppressed minority. Also I agree that it's seen as politically incorrect to not like Gwen, so again it's therefore OK to be vitriolic about Ianto.

It's very funny to think there is a whole group of people who feel more politically correct supporting a straight pairing, and OK about hating a gay one..

Also I've noticed some fans posting that just because the fans on LJ like Ianto and J/I, that isn't the dominant view of the ordinary viewer. Well how on earth could they know that? Most of my friends watched TW, but I am the only fannish type. They hardly even register the character names, but all of them would talk about how much they loved "Jack's boyfriend, the bloke in the suit" and they referred to Gwen as "the shouty Welsh policewoman" Now some of them in fact really liked Gwen, but they all loved Jack and Ianto as a couple. I think the average viewer that stuck with it, generally liked the way the show went, or they would have switched off. I really doubt they were all out there thinking if only they would kill Ianto and leave just Jack and GWen, then I would enjoy this show.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I love the 'just because the majority on LJ like Jack/Ianto, that doesn't mean that everyone does'. I get to use words like 'statistically representative' and 'logical fallacy'.

As in, it is a logical fallacy to state that the high proportion of Jack/Ianto fans amongst engaged (LJ, forum and ff.net using) Torchwood fans is not likely to be statistically representative of non-engaging Torchwood fans and casual viewers.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Yes absolutely, it is very basic common sense. In fact the most recent place I saw that stated was in the post you were referring to here. It was stated quite forcefully that it is simply not the case that Ianto is a favourite anywhere other than LJ. I have to admit I was floored by that comment. I didn't comment on the thread though, because I did only look at it after this post here, so it had all been a day or so before.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Don't be silly. Ianto is just so invasive that anyone who likes him is absolutely guaranteed to go online and talk about him, so everyone who likes him is represented online, whereas all the 'normal' people don't bother going online.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

LOL, your personal journal is for your opinions. I wouldn't want to argue with you here unless you said, "I think this, what do you guys think?" You've not come to my journal when I'm fangirling Gwen or other characters and said negative things about them.

We did argue/debate in Taffy's journal, but I think we were civil to one another, and her main point was that people can say what they like in their own journals; it's the constant bashing everywhere else that gets fans down. I did completely snap over that.

I have unpopular opinions about other fandoms, but I'm not going to go to their main comms to say so! :)

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I only commented on Taffy's post and on Jack Fiend's because they phrased it as questions for debate. They actually asked why there was so much dislike for Gwen, so I gave them a few of my theories on the larger beast and on my reactions perfectly. And then Taffy made some comment about how she was amused by people posting stuff like that as if she actually cared, which made me wonder why she asked.

If you were having a Gwen love party, I'd stay away, but think about inviting you to a Ianto love party to balance it out. I might even offer cake as a bribe. But yeah, if someone posts a more meta thing about 'why is this', then they might, you know, get answers.

I might have misread her comments, but that's how it came across. There just seems to be this huge void in the fandom across which very few people will venture, and a lot of tarring with the nut-flavoured brush.

And as I've said, I haven't got the time or patience at the moment to do the comms; haven't been over there in ages, even to post fic. I miss the days when the whole fandom just seemed to be writing porn for each other.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

People can disagree and have reasonable discussions. It does help if you've interacted with them before and they know your, you know, quirks. Taffy has liked Gwen as long as I've known her, and I thought her post was venting/rhetorical.

Just not sure how people think Ianto and Gwen are zero sum, as if his character is gone because hers isn't. Or assume that if someone likes Gwen that they don't like Ianto or Jack/Ianto. It's weird to me, but I ship everyone and like everyone so maybe I'm the weirdo.

I've been to an Ianto love party! For his birthday! With cake!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I'm only just getting to know people outside of fic, so I'm misstepping as you do at this stage. But she's not friends with me, I don't think, so she won't see this anyway.

I think Gwen and Ianto are like that because of the wars. It'd be like supporting both England and Australia, you just can't do it. It's England and whoever's playing Australia, or visa versa. Pick your side and support it fair or foul sort of thing. (Yes, everything is a cricket metaphor at the moment). Some people can, of course, but a lot can't contemplate it.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I get your POV, but I see a lot of shades of grey in Torchwood. It's such an ambiguous show where people aren't purely good or bad and actions aren't purely noble or selfish. Well, Tosh is mostly noble.

It's 'cause I'm old, fiwen!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I see shades of grey. I just think that some are darker grey than others.

I am still totally the baby of fandom among the peeps I hang out with. It's funny, I'm always the baby, and that never changes however much I grow up. Maybe it's because I'm just so mature and sensible for my age? *Cough*

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

We're all a little obsessive and not that sensible to others, I think!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Lol, this is true. Just imagine what we'd look like to the outside world...

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I only support England when the West Indies aren't playing.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Lol, sounds fair to me. I'm very definitely an England or whoever's playing Australia girl. A very happy England or whoever's playing Australia girl ;) Just joined the Barmy Army

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I'm happy they won the Ashes though even though I don't get to keep up with the games anymore.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

Hey there. Someone pointed me over to your post, I hope that's okay?

And then Taffy made some comment about how she was amused by people posting stuff like that as if she actually cared, which made me wonder why she asked.

I just wanted to clarify this. I never actually asked why there was so much dislike for Gwen. I have heard the arguments for why she's flawed, and I get them. What I actually asked was this:

...why must fandom spend so much time and energy attacking Gwen for being just as flawed and imperfect as the rest of them?

So not "why do people see Gwen as flawed and imperfect?" Rather, "why are everyone else's flaws excused and explained away while hers are focused on and magnified?" The responses that amused me weren't answering this question at all. They were making an argument that I had granted as a premise for my post (namely, that Gwen is flawed and imperfect.) Does that help you to understand my comment better?

Edited for punctuation fail.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delayed reply. There was an enthusiastic union of shit and fan, and then I could not remember where this comment was.

That does help to clarify it, yes. Although reading back over it, I did actually answer the question of why I can fogive Ianto more easily than Gwen... to start with at least, I may have got distracted later on. And there was quite a lot of comparing Gwen to Ianto, especially in their motivations. This surprises me a little, I can be like a dog with a bone who later realises that bone got abandoned and I started chewing on a stick for half an hour instead.

I hope you enjoyed the debate anyway, and that it wasn't a whole pile of suck that you didn't want in your journal. I genuinely did enjoy that post and the debate that stemmed from it - especailly when we got into marmite metaphors.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

No worries about the delay, shit happens. I hope it's better now?

There was some decent debate but there was also a lot of suck that I didn't want in my journal. Sadly, that suck doesn't begin compare to the level of suck that happened outside my journal as a result of the post.

Honestly? At this point I want to set fire to the internet.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Shit is getting better. It keeps recurring, but I'm only a week away from being home, so it should all be done soon.

Your post was an enjoyable debate. What's happened since has been a shit pile.

[iceshade.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't think you need to apologize for not liking a character. You made an honest mistake, which you said sorry for, and people should just move the fuck on. But what really makes me completely enraged is that they're all going on about how bashing a fictional character is bad and insulting real people to prove their point. And here I thought: real people > fictional characters
BUT APPARENTLY NOT.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it did get personal, and I think that there is an attitude of 'if you don't like Gwen, then you must be this...'

But apparently it's backlash to mainstream bashing. It's all turning into cricket, a bit. No taking your arguments onto the pitch except in the form of polite sledging, no making surly comments to the papers, no fighting in the car park...

And the damn thing keeps coming around, just a bit more often than every 2 years.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I have to say I don't get the idea going around that you have to justify your likes or dislikes especially when it comes to fake people. I love chocolate, I hate coffee. I love cheese on spaghetti bolognese, but hate it any where near my hamburgers. Nobody's ever required a clear, consise argument defending these choices.

It's a quirky fact of life that sometimes things that irritate/annoy you in one person/character you can find tolerable in another and sometimes a person/ character can rub you the wrong way just because. There's no rhyme or reason to it. Sometimes that's just the way it is.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think this is very much the case. Some people you get on with, some you don't. Some people you don't get on with, your friends will get along with really well, and you won't be able to escape them. Such is life.