Gwen, an apology

[galadriel1010]

A few of my friends recently have posted in their journals about the amount of anti-Gwen vitriol that they've seen, and wondering why there is so much.

So I, being me, replied, explained why I didn't like her and tried to join the discussion.

I didn't realise it was a rhetorical question. Nor did I realise that there's been a lot of anti-Gwen stuff around, because the fandom places I hang out in are Twitter and my flist. This does not cover any of the major non-fic communities or AGA. I had no idea it was going on. So when I saw stuff in my flist asking why people dislike Gwen... I thought they were honestly asking.

Being lonely, bored and procrastinating, I felt like answering it.

So, basically, I didn't know the context, and I apologise for joining in where I shouldn't have. Apparently the fandom is full of Gwen hate that people on my flist don't want to see. My flist is mostly full of people who like Gwen, and I keep feeling like I have to justify my dislike. I shouldn't feel like I have to, and I shouldn't try. So I'll stop.

ETA: I don't think most of the people I'm apologising to are actually friends with me, so they won't see this.

Comments

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

LOL, your personal journal is for your opinions. I wouldn't want to argue with you here unless you said, "I think this, what do you guys think?" You've not come to my journal when I'm fangirling Gwen or other characters and said negative things about them.

We did argue/debate in Taffy's journal, but I think we were civil to one another, and her main point was that people can say what they like in their own journals; it's the constant bashing everywhere else that gets fans down. I did completely snap over that.

I have unpopular opinions about other fandoms, but I'm not going to go to their main comms to say so! :)

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I only commented on Taffy's post and on Jack Fiend's because they phrased it as questions for debate. They actually asked why there was so much dislike for Gwen, so I gave them a few of my theories on the larger beast and on my reactions perfectly. And then Taffy made some comment about how she was amused by people posting stuff like that as if she actually cared, which made me wonder why she asked.

If you were having a Gwen love party, I'd stay away, but think about inviting you to a Ianto love party to balance it out. I might even offer cake as a bribe. But yeah, if someone posts a more meta thing about 'why is this', then they might, you know, get answers.

I might have misread her comments, but that's how it came across. There just seems to be this huge void in the fandom across which very few people will venture, and a lot of tarring with the nut-flavoured brush.

And as I've said, I haven't got the time or patience at the moment to do the comms; haven't been over there in ages, even to post fic. I miss the days when the whole fandom just seemed to be writing porn for each other.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

People can disagree and have reasonable discussions. It does help if you've interacted with them before and they know your, you know, quirks. Taffy has liked Gwen as long as I've known her, and I thought her post was venting/rhetorical.

Just not sure how people think Ianto and Gwen are zero sum, as if his character is gone because hers isn't. Or assume that if someone likes Gwen that they don't like Ianto or Jack/Ianto. It's weird to me, but I ship everyone and like everyone so maybe I'm the weirdo.

I've been to an Ianto love party! For his birthday! With cake!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I'm only just getting to know people outside of fic, so I'm misstepping as you do at this stage. But she's not friends with me, I don't think, so she won't see this anyway.

I think Gwen and Ianto are like that because of the wars. It'd be like supporting both England and Australia, you just can't do it. It's England and whoever's playing Australia, or visa versa. Pick your side and support it fair or foul sort of thing. (Yes, everything is a cricket metaphor at the moment). Some people can, of course, but a lot can't contemplate it.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I get your POV, but I see a lot of shades of grey in Torchwood. It's such an ambiguous show where people aren't purely good or bad and actions aren't purely noble or selfish. Well, Tosh is mostly noble.

It's 'cause I'm old, fiwen!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I see shades of grey. I just think that some are darker grey than others.

I am still totally the baby of fandom among the peeps I hang out with. It's funny, I'm always the baby, and that never changes however much I grow up. Maybe it's because I'm just so mature and sensible for my age? *Cough*

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

We're all a little obsessive and not that sensible to others, I think!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Lol, this is true. Just imagine what we'd look like to the outside world...

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I only support England when the West Indies aren't playing.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Lol, sounds fair to me. I'm very definitely an England or whoever's playing Australia girl. A very happy England or whoever's playing Australia girl ;) Just joined the Barmy Army

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I'm happy they won the Ashes though even though I don't get to keep up with the games anymore.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

Hey there. Someone pointed me over to your post, I hope that's okay?

And then Taffy made some comment about how she was amused by people posting stuff like that as if she actually cared, which made me wonder why she asked.

I just wanted to clarify this. I never actually asked why there was so much dislike for Gwen. I have heard the arguments for why she's flawed, and I get them. What I actually asked was this:

...why must fandom spend so much time and energy attacking Gwen for being just as flawed and imperfect as the rest of them?

So not "why do people see Gwen as flawed and imperfect?" Rather, "why are everyone else's flaws excused and explained away while hers are focused on and magnified?" The responses that amused me weren't answering this question at all. They were making an argument that I had granted as a premise for my post (namely, that Gwen is flawed and imperfect.) Does that help you to understand my comment better?

Edited for punctuation fail.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delayed reply. There was an enthusiastic union of shit and fan, and then I could not remember where this comment was.

That does help to clarify it, yes. Although reading back over it, I did actually answer the question of why I can fogive Ianto more easily than Gwen... to start with at least, I may have got distracted later on. And there was quite a lot of comparing Gwen to Ianto, especially in their motivations. This surprises me a little, I can be like a dog with a bone who later realises that bone got abandoned and I started chewing on a stick for half an hour instead.

I hope you enjoyed the debate anyway, and that it wasn't a whole pile of suck that you didn't want in your journal. I genuinely did enjoy that post and the debate that stemmed from it - especailly when we got into marmite metaphors.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

No worries about the delay, shit happens. I hope it's better now?

There was some decent debate but there was also a lot of suck that I didn't want in my journal. Sadly, that suck doesn't begin compare to the level of suck that happened outside my journal as a result of the post.

Honestly? At this point I want to set fire to the internet.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Shit is getting better. It keeps recurring, but I'm only a week away from being home, so it should all be done soon.

Your post was an enjoyable debate. What's happened since has been a shit pile.