Dippy Gala Bitches About Torchwood part 3

[galadriel1010]

There is a possibility that this will be garbled, because I think I have sunstroke... I am drinking fluids, because drinking solids is silly, and cursing my idiocy.


We all saw Ianto's death coming. They flagged it up, warned us, practically shouted it from the rooftops, and yet it was still a shock. It was a shock because we loved him, because it seemed like a stupid thing to do and, I think, because it made no sense within the universe that Torchwood had created.

Why do I think this? Because of selfishness.

Selfishness. It's that thing we keep accusing Gwen of, and ignoring that everyone else does it too. The thing is, everyone at Torchwood has their moments of selfishness, and Torchwood punishes them for it without fail. Even Gwen gets punished for it - the big thing she tries to keep is Rhys, and Torchwood keeps trying to take it back. In Something Borrowed, Torchwood essentially says 'well fine, you can have him, but I'm taking your wedding'. Torchwood is a jealous mistress, and likes her playthings exactly where she wants them.

This is also why I think that Rhys coming back in End of days makes no sense, because that should have been Gwen's punishment for trying to keep him, but Jack sort of tricked the system by his act of selflessness. Not that Ianto, who was tricked into opening the Rift because people would die if he didn't, is the one who gets Jack. And Jack, with his huge act of selflessness, gets the Doctor. But, of course, he tried to keep the Doctor from Torchwood, so that backfired.

Never annoy Torchwood; she bites.

So why does immortal!Ianto make sense? Surely Jack should have had to give him up as well, because keeping him would be selfish? Well, no. No, because Jack gave Ianto to Torchwood. He never shied from sacrificing and losing him, he dragged him into Jack's half-life in the Hub rather than living a life outside with him. It was always a three-way relationship between Jack, Ianto and Torchwood.

And then Jack gave him up, and Torchwood claimed Ianto Jones as well.

Jack's selflessness, in previous series, would have been rewarded. Sexually transmitted immortality or the Rift or a Torchwood induced immunity would have kicked in, and Ianto would have returned at just the right moment to save the day, preferably looking badass with a Really Big Gun and and 'I know' to Jack's gaping 'Ianto?'

And then there would have been awesome make-up sex, but not on screen, because this is the BBC. Instead, Jack was rewarded by having to sacrifice Steven as well.

No. Bad Torchwood; that is not how you play.

Because, you see, the greatest sacrifice that Ianto could have made was his mortality. We've been told so often that immortality is not something to aspire to, that it sucks, that it's not good. And that Jack is the loneliest person in the world (even though the Doctor would like to think that it's him). Of course Ianto would give up his mortality to keep Jack safe and sane - it's what their relationship was all about.

Ianto's sacrifice would have been Jack's reward. That would have worked and made sense and would have underlined the whole point of Torchwood. Instead, after two series of 'selflessness will hurt, but will be rewarded; selfishness will get you spanked and not in a good way', we got a series of 'selfishness doesn't help, selflessness will just hurt, you can't win either way, kill yourself now'.

That's why I think that Ianto should be brought back.

And this is sort of standing in for a story, because I'm waaay behind on writing. Bah :(

Comments

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I'm so confused. :D

Jack's selflessnss, in previous series, would have been rewarded.

There are instances of Jack being selfless, but if he were really selfless, he'd run Torchwood by himself, since it's so dangerous and everyone he recruits is put at risk -- eh, maybe hire some mercenary jagoff Blowfish to catch Weevils, though he'd probably end up caring for them, too, and weeping over their coked-up corpses.

(My theory about Lucia is that Jack made her retire, because he lost his dad and didn't want Alice's mother to die young.) I think he lost Steven because he had given the children to the 456; it was his penance, and it showed he couldn't protect everyone. I think an effective ending would have been for Jack to retcon Ianto after Steven's death -- to protect him. Which would have been sad, but he'd also be alive. If you love someone, let them go, and all that. THAT is selfless.

Of course Ianto would give up his mortality to keep Jack safe and sane - it's what their relationship was all about.

Hmm. Ianto was pretty selfless, but I wouldn't wish Jack's fate on anybody else, and I don't think Jack would, either. Though I was happy to hear the Doctor canonically has unlimited regenerations, so Jack (and the Doctor) will never be alone in the universe.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

There are instances of Jack being selfless, but if he were really selfless, he'd run Torchwood by himself, since it's so dangerous and everyone he recruits is put at risk
But would that be selfless or selfish? Or just really stupid? There's no way that Jack could work Torchwood alone without a lot of innocent civilians dying.

eh, maybe hire some mercenary jagoff Blowfish to catch Weevils, though he'd probably end up caring for them, too, and weeping over their coked-up corpses.
But the Blowfish are sentient beings as well, clearly capable of higher thought just as humans are. We can't treat them any differently.
Besides, Torchwood is obvious enough as it is.

(My theory about Lucia is that Jack made her retire, because he lost his dad and didn't want Alice's mother to die young.)
Open to interpretation, I guess. The impression I got was that Lucia got Torchwood to help her hide from Jack, whereas if she'd just agreed (albeit reluctantly) to retire it would have been Retcon and the full works.

I think he lost Steven because he had given the children to the 456; it was his penance, and it showed he couldn't protect everyone.
I really hated the way that CoE made it out that that was Jack's fault. It wasn't his call to make, and Torchwood always had a fate worse than death hanging over his head. He might have been prepared to die rather than go through with it, but what they threatened was much worse.

If you love someone, let them go, and all that. THAT is selfless.
Only if they want to go. If he'd sent Ianto away then it would have been horribly selfish.

Ianto was pretty selfless, but I wouldn't wish Jack's fate on anybody else, and I don't think Jack would, either.
Jack would hate himself for it, it would be awesome. All that angst...

Though I was happy to hear the Doctor canonically has unlimited regenerations, so Jack (and the Doctor) will never be alone in the universe.
I'm not convinced by that line in SJA. It sounded more like a 'don't ask stupid questions that I don't want to think about'. But I would also need to see the Doctor actually acknowledge Jack as anything more than an acquaintance. The 10th Doctor was horrible to Jack - Jack gets a 'we travelled together' and the Master is describe as 'we were friends, once'. One of these characters is a psychopath who has plotted the destruction of the Doctor and the universe many times, and one is areformed criminal who died for the Doctor and has been protecting the Earth for a century.
But that's a whole other pile of issues.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I really hated the way that CoE made it out that that was Jack's fault. It wasn't his call to make, and Torchwood always had a fate worse than death hanging over his head. He might have been prepared to die rather than go through with it, but what they threatened was much worse.

I hated this too. Besides the whole idea that Steven was just some commodity that could be traded in to pay for Jack's sins, the implication that Jack deserved to be punished more severely than anybody else for something that wasn't even of his making didn't sit particularly well with me either.There was no sense that anyone else involved in this decision was punished by the universe as harshly. There seems to be this idea on the show that Jack should suffer endlessly for the sin of being immortal as if he went out and chose to be this way.

Personally I find Jack pretty selfish, but he has moments of selflessness when the stakes are big enough.

I wouldn't want Ianto to be immortal. According to the Torchwood-verse if you're immortal all you get to do for your interminably long life is suffer and suffer and then suffer some more. You're not even allowed to be all that happy in those moments when you do get a brief reprieve from suffering because then you might forget being immortal is the worst thing ever. Ret-conning him would have been interesting especially since he didn't retcon him after the 'Lisa incident'.

My impression was Lucia left. I didn't get the sense Jack had all that much say in the matter.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Jack is treated like a weeble on the show. Just because he can survive anything, they treat him like it has no impact on him at all.

I wouldn't wish immortality on anyone, but at least we know that if Ianto were immortal, Jack would do everything he could to make it bearable. And it's always going to be easier with two anyway

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I don't know - the Lucia stuff is left vague. I love that about Torchwood since it leaves room for alternative fanon. Lucia left Jack at some point because she couldn't cope with his immortality, but there's no evidence she left Torchwood at that time, or that she and Jack broke up later. The timeline says the latter is more likely, but we dunno. :)

Moffat wants Jack to appear on Doctor Who! And Ten and Jack parted with acceptance from Ten, so I can see the Doctor and Jack as friends and allies eternally -- someone who's got your back. (If Jack ever turned evil like the Master, he'd be frankly a horrible adversary, though of course you could just bury him...)

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I hated that scene with the Doctor. It just seemed to be more of the 10th Doctor treating Jack exactly as he always does, as a warm body with no emotions to go with it.
"Sorry your partner died because I wasn't there to save the world, like I would have been for anyone else. Here, have someone pretty to make up for it."
But Jack with the 11th Doctor would be awesome! Especially if Any's around... Gah, can I go home and rewatch series 5 yet?

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't know... I think it says a lot for the Doctor's opinion of Jack that he trusts him with Alonso, whom he also cares about as a person. Even if in fanon you'd like to think that Alonso and Jack end up good platonic buddies fighting evil for a bit. :)

You've seen the classic macro for Jack meeting Eleven though, right?

http://community.livejournal.com/ihasatardis/1729979.html

LOL. :D

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Or it says a lot about the Doctor's opinion of Jack that he thinks he needs someone to keep an eye on him, which, going by their past interactions, is how I read it.

*Sniggers at the macro* I hadn't seen it before. Need to stalk icanhaztardis more often.

[thebuttonontop.livejournal.com]

i have so much to say on this subject right now. i wish i had the capacity to do so. i fully agree with everything though. and Timelord!Ianto has become my new crack.
when its not 130 am, then i'll probably respond to this. *hugs*

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I'm not so keen on Timelord!Ianto, but other means to immortal!Ianto make me happy.

*Hugs* I look forwards to it. Sleep well, when you do

[bk_forever]

I like the idea of Immortal Ianto because I think he would see immortality differently to the way Jack sees it.

For Jack, it's been a curse from the start - he wakes up on the Game Station, surrounded by corpses, not knowing at that point that he's immortal, only knowing that he's been abandoned by the only people he's given his trust to in who knows how long. People he admires and respects, but they've dumped him.

He gets back to Earth, but finds he's missed his aim by more than a hundred years and believes that he'll die before the Doctor ever returns and that he'll never find out why he was abandoned. Then he finds out he can't be killed and realises that he'll outlive everyone he knows and cares about, that's bad enough, but then Torchwood gets hold of him, tortures him and experiments on him and oh look - there's something even worse than watching those you care about grow old and die. Jack can't see anything good about being immortal, he's fundamentally alone.

Ianto would treat it as a gift - an opportunity to ease Jack's loneliness, to be there for him, so that there's someone Jack won't have to watch grow old and die, someone to help share the burden of protecting Cardiff. He can die sometimes in Jack's place to save Jack a bit of that suffering too. Two will always be better than one, and I think Ianto would embrace that.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I think you're totally right. Ianto's perspective on it would be completely different, because he'd go into it with someone there, wheras Jack started off immortal by being abandoned.

[welsh-scotsman.livejournal.com]

Wow. Can I just say that your idea and reasoning here is brilliant? Personally, I don't read any Immortal! Ianto stuff as I see that it would be a curse and they'd end up hating each other and so on and so forth.

However, the way you explain it here in relation to the other two series and how Torchwood is all about paying for being selfish and being rewarded for selflessness is just brilliant! I see it in a total new light not and just wow. I'm sure I could come up with something more coherent and valuable here but I'm just bowled over by the logic in this and why aren't you writing for Torchood???

I completely agree with Jack having to sacrifice Stephen after having lost Ianto and been blown up and killed however many times and having all the past dragged up. Okay, so they might want to have shown that all actions have consequences and no one gets away with anything but seriously? I think the blowing up and growing the body back and then losing Ianto and Stephen and in a way, Alice in less than two days was a bit much. It did seem very much 'lets torture Jack continuously for five days - he's immortal, he doesn't care'.

I don't think he should have been punished for the 1965 thing as he was being forced to do it and it was the whole sacrifice the few for the many idea. Either way those kids would have died wither from being sacrificed or by the indonesian flu or whatever it was they were threatening to send over.

Just out of interest, did we see Ianto's death coming? Was it really that obvious? I didn't see it coming but then, I wasn't really involved in Torchwood at the time so I might have missed a lot of stuff.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Thank you :) It took me a while to figure out what exactly felt wrong, but this struck me eventually. It just took even longer to be able to find the words (apparently sunstroke is good for you; who knew?)
And yeah, CoE felt like gratuitous torture porn. What can we throw at Jack today to punish him for being bisexual immortal?

There were a few things thathinted that ianto's time was up, like that line in The Dead Line and Jack's joke about Ianto dying. A lot of people expected it, but a lot of them were in denial (well, I was)

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

One of my problems with Ianto's death is that I expect more from a Sci-Fi show then dead is dead. That's not what I signed up for, it's uninspired and boring. It's a big like ording a three star meal and end up being served a Hamburger from McDonalds.

I like your thoughts about immortality and I think it could have been a very interesting storline if Ianto would have ended up immortal. He would have done that for Jack, Ianto loves deeply but also in a dangerous way, we already saw that with Lisa. And Jack? He could have already done it when he brought Ianto back in Cyberwoman. But their issues wouldn't have suddenly dissapeared and I think it would have been interesting to see their relationship when suddenly they would have been the only two people in the universe who could have had "forever together". Sooner or later this would have torn them apart... This story-line could have been SO much more then dead is dead.