Dippy Gala Bitches About Torchwood part 3
Nov. 17th, 2010 04:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
galadriel1010There is a possibility that this will be garbled, because I think I have sunstroke... I am drinking fluids, because drinking solids is silly, and cursing my idiocy.
We all saw Ianto's death coming. They flagged it up, warned us, practically shouted it from the rooftops, and yet it was still a shock. It was a shock because we loved him, because it seemed like a stupid thing to do and, I think, because it made no sense within the universe that Torchwood had created.
Why do I think this? Because of selfishness.
Selfishness. It's that thing we keep accusing Gwen of, and ignoring that everyone else does it too. The thing is, everyone at Torchwood has their moments of selfishness, and Torchwood punishes them for it without fail. Even Gwen gets punished for it - the big thing she tries to keep is Rhys, and Torchwood keeps trying to take it back. In Something Borrowed, Torchwood essentially says 'well fine, you can have him, but I'm taking your wedding'. Torchwood is a jealous mistress, and likes her playthings exactly where she wants them.
This is also why I think that Rhys coming back in End of days makes no sense, because that should have been Gwen's punishment for trying to keep him, but Jack sort of tricked the system by his act of selflessness. Not that Ianto, who was tricked into opening the Rift because people would die if he didn't, is the one who gets Jack. And Jack, with his huge act of selflessness, gets the Doctor. But, of course, he tried to keep the Doctor from Torchwood, so that backfired.
Never annoy Torchwood; she bites.
So why does immortal!Ianto make sense? Surely Jack should have had to give him up as well, because keeping him would be selfish? Well, no. No, because Jack gave Ianto to Torchwood. He never shied from sacrificing and losing him, he dragged him into Jack's half-life in the Hub rather than living a life outside with him. It was always a three-way relationship between Jack, Ianto and Torchwood.
And then Jack gave him up, and Torchwood claimed Ianto Jones as well.
Jack's selflessness, in previous series, would have been rewarded. Sexually transmitted immortality or the Rift or a Torchwood induced immunity would have kicked in, and Ianto would have returned at just the right moment to save the day, preferably looking badass with a Really Big Gun and and 'I know' to Jack's gaping 'Ianto?'
And then there would have been awesome make-up sex, but not on screen, because this is the BBC. Instead, Jack was rewarded by having to sacrifice Steven as well.
No. Bad Torchwood; that is not how you play.
Because, you see, the greatest sacrifice that Ianto could have made was his mortality. We've been told so often that immortality is not something to aspire to, that it sucks, that it's not good. And that Jack is the loneliest person in the world (even though the Doctor would like to think that it's him). Of course Ianto would give up his mortality to keep Jack safe and sane - it's what their relationship was all about.
Ianto's sacrifice would have been Jack's reward. That would have worked and made sense and would have underlined the whole point of Torchwood. Instead, after two series of 'selflessness will hurt, but will be rewarded; selfishness will get you spanked and not in a good way', we got a series of 'selfishness doesn't help, selflessness will just hurt, you can't win either way, kill yourself now'.
That's why I think that Ianto should be brought back.
And this is sort of standing in for a story, because I'm waaay behind on writing. Bah :(
We all saw Ianto's death coming. They flagged it up, warned us, practically shouted it from the rooftops, and yet it was still a shock. It was a shock because we loved him, because it seemed like a stupid thing to do and, I think, because it made no sense within the universe that Torchwood had created.
Why do I think this? Because of selfishness.
Selfishness. It's that thing we keep accusing Gwen of, and ignoring that everyone else does it too. The thing is, everyone at Torchwood has their moments of selfishness, and Torchwood punishes them for it without fail. Even Gwen gets punished for it - the big thing she tries to keep is Rhys, and Torchwood keeps trying to take it back. In Something Borrowed, Torchwood essentially says 'well fine, you can have him, but I'm taking your wedding'. Torchwood is a jealous mistress, and likes her playthings exactly where she wants them.
This is also why I think that Rhys coming back in End of days makes no sense, because that should have been Gwen's punishment for trying to keep him, but Jack sort of tricked the system by his act of selflessness. Not that Ianto, who was tricked into opening the Rift because people would die if he didn't, is the one who gets Jack. And Jack, with his huge act of selflessness, gets the Doctor. But, of course, he tried to keep the Doctor from Torchwood, so that backfired.
Never annoy Torchwood; she bites.
So why does immortal!Ianto make sense? Surely Jack should have had to give him up as well, because keeping him would be selfish? Well, no. No, because Jack gave Ianto to Torchwood. He never shied from sacrificing and losing him, he dragged him into Jack's half-life in the Hub rather than living a life outside with him. It was always a three-way relationship between Jack, Ianto and Torchwood.
And then Jack gave him up, and Torchwood claimed Ianto Jones as well.
Jack's selflessness, in previous series, would have been rewarded. Sexually transmitted immortality or the Rift or a Torchwood induced immunity would have kicked in, and Ianto would have returned at just the right moment to save the day, preferably looking badass with a Really Big Gun and and 'I know' to Jack's gaping 'Ianto?'
And then there would have been awesome make-up sex, but not on screen, because this is the BBC. Instead, Jack was rewarded by having to sacrifice Steven as well.
No. Bad Torchwood; that is not how you play.
Because, you see, the greatest sacrifice that Ianto could have made was his mortality. We've been told so often that immortality is not something to aspire to, that it sucks, that it's not good. And that Jack is the loneliest person in the world (even though the Doctor would like to think that it's him). Of course Ianto would give up his mortality to keep Jack safe and sane - it's what their relationship was all about.
Ianto's sacrifice would have been Jack's reward. That would have worked and made sense and would have underlined the whole point of Torchwood. Instead, after two series of 'selflessness will hurt, but will be rewarded; selfishness will get you spanked and not in a good way', we got a series of 'selfishness doesn't help, selflessness will just hurt, you can't win either way, kill yourself now'.
That's why I think that Ianto should be brought back.
And this is sort of standing in for a story, because I'm waaay behind on writing. Bah :(
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no subject
Date: 2010-11-17 06:46 am (UTC)But would that be selfless or selfish? Or just really stupid? There's no way that Jack could work Torchwood alone without a lot of innocent civilians dying.
eh, maybe hire some mercenary jagoff Blowfish to catch Weevils, though he'd probably end up caring for them, too, and weeping over their coked-up corpses.
But the Blowfish are sentient beings as well, clearly capable of higher thought just as humans are. We can't treat them any differently.
Besides, Torchwood is obvious enough as it is.
(My theory about Lucia is that Jack made her retire, because he lost his dad and didn't want Alice's mother to die young.)
Open to interpretation, I guess. The impression I got was that Lucia got Torchwood to help her hide from Jack, whereas if she'd just agreed (albeit reluctantly) to retire it would have been Retcon and the full works.
I think he lost Steven because he had given the children to the 456; it was his penance, and it showed he couldn't protect everyone.
I really hated the way that CoE made it out that that was Jack's fault. It wasn't his call to make, and Torchwood always had a fate worse than death hanging over his head. He might have been prepared to die rather than go through with it, but what they threatened was much worse.
If you love someone, let them go, and all that. THAT is selfless.
Only if they want to go. If he'd sent Ianto away then it would have been horribly selfish.
Ianto was pretty selfless, but I wouldn't wish Jack's fate on anybody else, and I don't think Jack would, either.
Jack would hate himself for it, it would be awesome. All that angst...
Though I was happy to hear the Doctor canonically has unlimited regenerations, so Jack (and the Doctor) will never be alone in the universe.
I'm not convinced by that line in SJA. It sounded more like a 'don't ask stupid questions that I don't want to think about'. But I would also need to see the Doctor actually acknowledge Jack as anything more than an acquaintance. The 10th Doctor was horrible to Jack - Jack gets a 'we travelled together' and the Master is describe as 'we were friends, once'. One of these characters is a psychopath who has plotted the destruction of the Doctor and the universe many times, and one is areformed criminal who died for the Doctor and has been protecting the Earth for a century.
But that's a whole other pile of issues.
no subject
Date: 2010-11-17 07:43 am (UTC)I hated this too. Besides the whole idea that Steven was just some commodity that could be traded in to pay for Jack's sins, the implication that Jack deserved to be punished more severely than anybody else for something that wasn't even of his making didn't sit particularly well with me either.There was no sense that anyone else involved in this decision was punished by the universe as harshly. There seems to be this idea on the show that Jack should suffer endlessly for the sin of being immortal as if he went out and chose to be this way.
Personally I find Jack pretty selfish, but he has moments of selflessness when the stakes are big enough.
I wouldn't want Ianto to be immortal. According to the Torchwood-verse if you're immortal all you get to do for your interminably long life is suffer and suffer and then suffer some more. You're not even allowed to be all that happy in those moments when you do get a brief reprieve from suffering because then you might forget being immortal is the worst thing ever. Ret-conning him would have been interesting especially since he didn't retcon him after the 'Lisa incident'.
My impression was Lucia left. I didn't get the sense Jack had all that much say in the matter.
no subject
Date: 2010-11-17 09:19 am (UTC)I wouldn't wish immortality on anyone, but at least we know that if Ianto were immortal, Jack would do everything he could to make it bearable. And it's always going to be easier with two anyway
no subject
Date: 2010-11-17 06:33 pm (UTC)Moffat wants Jack to appear on Doctor Who! And Ten and Jack parted with acceptance from Ten, so I can see the Doctor and Jack as friends and allies eternally -- someone who's got your back. (If Jack ever turned evil like the Master, he'd be frankly a horrible adversary, though of course you could just bury him...)
no subject
Date: 2010-11-17 08:26 pm (UTC)"Sorry your partner died because I wasn't there to save the world, like I would have been for anyone else. Here, have someone pretty to make up for it."
But Jack with the 11th Doctor would be awesome! Especially if Any's around... Gah, can I go home and rewatch series 5 yet?
no subject
Date: 2010-11-17 08:35 pm (UTC)You've seen the classic macro for Jack meeting Eleven though, right?
http://community.livejournal.com/ihasatardis/1729979.html
LOL. :D
no subject
Date: 2010-11-17 08:51 pm (UTC)*Sniggers at the macro* I hadn't seen it before. Need to stalk icanhaztardis more often.