Privacy in Torchwood

[galadriel1010]

This is a trope that I find a bit disturbing, so I'm probably come across as judgey as a judge, but this is not a post to say “don't do this ever” so much as “please can you think about this and engage with me in discussion about it”.


The trope I'm thinking of is the one where Tosh hacks into the CCTV archives to retrieve deleted or protected footage of Jack and Ianto having sex.

There is no trope in Torchwood fanfiction that makes me backbutton faster. Even if the footage weren't password protected or deleted, that would be weird, but to deliberately and determinedly invade the privacy of not just your friends, but the man who saved you from UNIT's clutches?

That's not just creepy and a betrayal of their friendship, it's also illegal. The extent of the illegality is questionable, as there is no privacy law in England and Wales, but it would be comparable to the current case regarding the News of the World, who hacked into people's answering machines to get stories. As this is a current case, no one knows what the outcome will be (ETA: Four months later and it's bringing down the government), but if you want to look at the legal arguments surrounding it you can look at the arguments being put forwards in the media about that case and then subtract the celebrity element and put friendships in, for added squick.

Not that Torchwood cares about the legality of things like that all that much, but I suspect they would care more if it were their own privacy at question.

If we look at this trope from the start:

Stage 1: Jack and Ianto have sex at work. This could be because they're exhibitionists, or it could be because they live in the Hub. Going with option 2, they live in the Hub because someone has to be there to monitor the Rift and take the night callouts, so they are in the Hub, having sex there, so that Tosh and the others don't have to be.

Stage 2: They, being covered at all hours, delete the recorded footage of them having sex. Or maybe they just put it into a special folder and put a password on it so that they can access it later but no one else can get at it.. Either way, they ensure that their teammates can't get at it.

Stage 3: Tosh (or Gwen, but usually Tosh) breaks through the passwords or retrieves the deleted footage.

On what planet is that okay?

And to top it off, it's with Jack – the one who guards his secrets like Cerberus does the underworld, with lots of growling and not-fun biting if you get too close – and Ianto – the one who guards his secrets like... you can see where this is going.

So before you have Tosh oh-so-cleverly hacking through the layers of passwords, or carefully retrieving the deleted footage, please think about what she's about to do? And maybe how you'd feel if one of your friends – on whom your life often depended – was watching you having sex without your knowledge and consent.

Jack and Ianto have little enough privacy as it is. I'm sure Tosh wouldn't begrudge them what they tried to hold on to.

Tl;dr: There's a reason peeping Toms go to prison or get restraining orders.

Comments

[welsh-scotsman.livejournal.com]

thank you for posting this. this is exactly what i think whenever i see a fic with tosh watching cctv of jack and ianto having sex. i don't read it for this very reason - it's an invasion of privacy and an abuse of trust.

what also really annoys me is that in most of the fics, jack and ianto seem to be perfectly okay with it! what canon are these people watching?????

aside from the fact that jack and ianto are both just as private about their relationship as well as their personal lives, tosh doesn't seem to be that kind of person at all.

surely she out of all of them would understand the need for privacy and i also cannot see her then sending that footage to other members of the team or keeping it for herself. it just *shudders* it doesn't work for me and i really don't see how it works for others.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I can understand that voyeurism is a kink and that some people may want to read or write that, and I wouldn't have a problem with it if I thought that that was what was happening, but it's usually treated as something cute and funny and perfectly normal.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I think Jack's sexual harrassment isn't harrassment, as such. He'd stop, or not even start, if someone was uncomfortable with it. We only think to call it that, really, because Ianto joked about it, and there was nothing in Ianto's delivery that hinted at him seeing it in a negative light.

And I am answering you in reverse, but whatever. I possibly do take fanfic too seriously, but it's the proliferation of the trope and the fact that people don't seem to think about it that worries me.

Of course, I don't particularly like thinking about photos or videos of the boys naked (which is why my favourite erotic scenes involve layers), so maybe I'm just more objective or just want the footage deleted. Idk.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Jack can definitely get disturbing in fic, and it happens in every fandom with every character. And outside fic as well. Society needs a slap around the head.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

See I think the gun training is actually creepy and proper harassment. However I do see as Jack being like these Captain's of old, who harassed and bullied their troops relentlessly. He does have an appalling way of relating to his staff, that in real life would lead to a tribunal pretty quickly.

I'm glad they did pair Jack with Ianto though, as I think if he carried on that way with enough characters he would have worn thin very quickly, and just been this creepy lothario type.

[pocky_slash.livejournal.com]

Drive by comment with no content except to use this super appropriate Jack icon!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I don't think he was even Torchwood's worst boss. He doesn't torture his employees, for a start.

He's not brilliant, but he's not Alice/Emily, either.

And he's not Yvonne.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I hate all of that episode, pretty much. But I think that they started out fairly professional in the gun range and then they kept reading each other's signals and... They just really wanted to get in each other's pants. Possibly.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Nah, I don't think that at all. Still of course it's just one of those many things that you can read all sorts of things into. I just think that Jack probably does it to everyone, and it's a way of intimidating people and showing your power over them. Then again I've never seen the Jack/Gwen thing, so when I saw that scene I didn't read it that way, but I'm sure it's a favourite scene for those into the J/G.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I have to confess, I haven't watched Torchwood in over a year, but that was the impression I came away with. Or that was the impression that I got the impression I was supposed to have come away with. Jack/Gwen never really worked for me, but I could see where they were trying to make it work.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I find that scene a bit creepy too, I suppose, because even in fiction I take the boss/subordinate dynamic seriously and a boss, even an attractive one, or possibly, especially an attractive one because, let's face it, only goodlooking people could get away with that kind of behaviour, using a professional exercise to basically cop a feel strikes me as pretty tacky. And to be honest as much as I like the Jack/Ianto relationship the fact that he's his boss and the power Jack seems to hold in that relationship do make me more than a little uncomfortable about liking the relationship. So fics where Jack pressures or forces Ianto to have sex with him have little appeal for me.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I think this is why I like writing fic where Ianto is more in charge, as well as because he's awesome.

Not that I think Ianto would have any issues with telling Jack where to go if he didn't want sex from the start of S2 onwards, at least, and I don't buy that Jack would want to, either.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Oh yes I totally agree with you. I think the reason Jack/Ianto appealed to me in canon was that Ianto made all the first moves onscreen. Which does balance out the boss thing, and even though Ianto did look up to Jack, the sexual relationship didn't seem to be relevant to the way he admired him professionally, if that makes any sense at all, but I always felt that it was very seperate. Of course shagging the boss is one of the oldest tropes, in real life as well as fiction, so it's always fraught with cliches anyhow.

I can only see the gun range thing in a very negative light, of Jack being innappropriate, for the reasons that you say. I don't really like that episode anyhow, but there are a few scenes in TW that I never bother to rewatch, and that's one of them. I find it very uncomfortable.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I agree. In real life those are the guys your friends warn you about. Who become really annoying and end up quite pathetic in the long run. I think TW had a strange way of dealing with it, Jack being all talk and no action, but then again, maybe we were supposed to realise that is exactly what he was.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Or the scene in the second episode where he records Gwen and Carys kissing. He was such a creeper.

But yeah, I don't think they had things like characterisation, really. Most of what we know of the characters has been built up over the last few years through fanfiction, not through the canon.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I think Jack is supposed to be all talk and no trousers. Possibly even a little threateningly so, so that no one tries to get close.

Someone had to go bugger that up though, didn't they?

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

My fanon is that his vortex manipulator also sort of trained him in the sensibilities and rules for that time period, and it downloaded Victorianism into him before crashing, so he's sort of stuck on Victorian. There is something deep within him that desperately wants to have a large formal lunch and then fall asleep under a copy of the Daily Telegraph every day.

But yeah, 'he's from the future' is a lousy excuse.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Exactly, he is like an unreconstructed Victorian military type. That's how I see him, who intimidates and bullies people, or flirts with them, whatever works to get his way. I don't mind that, I just wish that they didn't throw the odd thing in to muddle it all.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I think some people, and probably the show, don't really make much of distinction between liking and enjoying sex and being comfortable with who you are and being basically a letch, who feels entitled to grope people at will. Apparently if you define yourself as the former you must also be the latter. Also apparently in the 51st century groping people at will is acceptable behaviour which, personally, doesn't strike me as all that appealing.

[citrinesunset.livejournal.com]

I find that scene creepy, too. Though, it's possible I'm projecting a bit.

But yeah, Jack isn't the best boss.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

The thing I don't get is how Tosh became this voyeur in fanon? I really don't get it. There is nothing in canon to hint at it. To be honest I don't think that the authors of the stories see it in the way you do, I think that it's quite way out there in things that really are totally AU in that sense, and not at all realistic. At least I really hope so, because I know Tosh is lonely, and in love with someone who ignores her etc, but even in my most depressed and lonely, the last thing I would want to do is watch two of my friends having sex!

I have only read these stories if from an author I like, so it's pretty rare that I read them. The authors I read tend not to write them, or if they do they are pretty tame. However I do remember once coming apon a story, which I didn't actually read much of, where Tosh and Gwen and other TW women (Martha maybe?) were having girls night's in to watch DVD's of Jack and Ianto having sex. It was just beyond ludicrous. I think maybe also that's the thing, people writing it don't think that through, and just write it for the porn value, or something. It's a fantasy, that in real life would be rather nasty, as you have pointed out.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I think it's partly because we spend all of our time watching them getting off, so we don't see them as a real couple so much, in a way. They're porny for us, so surely they're porny for everyone else? But when you think about how they'd see it, it becomes different.

They would hate us, if they knew

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

You raise a good point. I've seen (Ok and read) numerous stories with this trope. It's almost become a part of fanon it occurs so frequently.

I would agree that Jack and Ianto are both private people, but Jack is pretty open about sexual matters with his teammates. When Gwen catches them in the greenhouse, Ianto is visibly embarassed. Jack invites her to join in.

A lot of times in fanfic their relationship is shown to be more permanent/secure/comfortable than it is on the show. So would they be comfortable with someone watching them on tape in these circumstances, I don't know?

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I don't think Ianto could ever be comfortable with it, and Jack would protect him in his adorable posessive way.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of this trope although I've read a few fics with it in and I'm not sure I buy Tosh as this obsessively voyeuristic type, but there are other kinks that get fandom's motor running that I find far more disturbing and I agree that a lot of these kinks would be illegal in the real world and would probably land the characters in jail and if things like slavery and dubcon are acceptable tropes for fiction voyeurism strikes me as pretty mild in comparison.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I have a large pile of issues on noncon and dubcon as well, but I think that other people have that pretty well covered. I don't know if this happens in other fandoms, but I've never seen it appear on ffrants until I brought it up, so it either doesn't happen or is tolerated to a worrying degree

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

With regards to Jack and Ianto, I have a hard time believing Ianto would be happy having his colleagues watching him have sex especially since just talking about his relationship with Jack seems to make him uncomfortable. Jack? I don't know. He's pretty open about sex, but being comfortable with sex and your sexuality doesn't automatically translate into wanting your private business spread around or being happy to have people watch you in a private moment without you're consent. Plus even if he was comfortable with it if Ianto isn't I would hope he'd have enough sensitivity and consideration for the person he's sleeping with not to encourage behaviour they'd be uncomfortable with. So Ianto giving Tosh said cctv footage stretches my credibility more than a little bit. Jack handing over cctv footage of he and Ianto having sex without Ianto's consent just makes Jack seem like an inconsiderate tool.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, Ianto would hate it. And I think that Jack respects Ianto enough as a colleague, let alone as whatever sort of partner he was, to let something like that come between the team.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

If anyone (and I will admit to being guilty of playfully using this trope with Tosh before...) is going to hack in and watch, it's John Hart.

Actually, that's a fic I would like to read. Yes, it is. So, if anyone wants to use a voyeur, use him. For me? Please?

Ahem. Anyway. To your point, I do agree that it is a senseless trope. However, yeah, I'll read anything well written. And I can see (canon) Tosh doing that ONLY if she has reason to believe that Jack is abusing Ianto, or something. And even that's a stretch and certainly much more analytical than pleasurable. Pleasure could be a side effect, though?

So really, I'm just rambling now. Don't mind me. Ultimately I agree, but am guilty, too. The end. :-/

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

John would, and Owen would too. Gwen's more likely to do it for the protection thing than Tosh, but they could both do it on that basis, and Tosh would be more likely to get pleasure out of it.

Gwen would be more likely to either giggle uncontrollably every time she saw them forever after, or decide that Jack was indeed abusing Ianto.

I used to read this as long as it was well written, but then I thought about it too much, and now I get ragey. Clearly I need to stop thinking.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Voyeurism is totally a kink, and I think labeling a story where someone watches other characters on CCTV as "voyeurism" is doing fandom a service because people look for that kink. Just sticking it in a Jack/Ianto story randomly as a fetish of Tosh's is kind of weird, though.

Owen, we know, would watch and record people shagging on CCTV, since he was perving on Gwen and Carys kissing. And nobody was really horrified that it could be observed. Tosh, on the other hand, wasn't too pleased with the mind-reading voyeurism she experienced wearing the necklace, so I don't think she'd randomly look at footage hoping to run across shagvids.

Appropriate icon is appropriate!!! :D

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I can totally buy it as a kink (not one of mine, but that puts it on a very, very short list so I'm not going to judge there). It's when it comes up, like you said, unwarned for in an unconnected fic, and especially when it's used to show just how clever and awesome Tosh is.

Owen, yes, totally would. It's possibly how he knew to make the 'part time shag' comment.

And appropriate icon is very appropriate. I do love that frond for modesty.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Voyeurism is a big kink in this fandom because of the CCTV being used in the Hub, I think... it occurs to people as something they can use (and we used it as a porn battle prompt). But I don't think Tosh needs to prove she's a genius by being able to pull up porn vids. And Jack and Ianto would be aware that cameras exist, and I highly doubt any are in Jack's hole (LOL). I don't know... you'd have to set this up for me as a kink or plot point in the story and not a throwaway.

Even though we are all voyeurs by reading about them doing it. LOLLLLLZ. :)

[gracie-musica.livejournal.com]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Foxy.

Voyeurism is a kink; in some way, all porn and erotica can be seen as a form of voyeurism, no matter what medium it's being conveyed in. Tosh just happens to be a fangirl stand-in by default -- Gwen's got too strong of an emotional attachment to Jack (either romantic or otherwise, depends on your leanings) and Owen's too... Well, male. (which sounds more terrible than I intend it t) So the task falls to Toshiko, lonely and desperate for love, or at least a good thrill.

We all love a good Mary Sue, and hate the bad ones.

... And that's my unasked for two cents on the subject.

On a personal note, some of the voyeur!Tosh fics I like involve Jantosh, which removes the squick but keeps the kink. It's all, ultimately, a matter of set-up; for example, I hate noncon, but have no problem with BSDM. It's a fine line.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

As I said to Foxy, I have absolutely no issue with it as a kink, but a big issue with the amount that it's just played for laughs or as a throwaway line. "Oh teehee, isn't Tosh clever, of course Jack and Ianto can't keep their private life private from her if she wants to watch" kind of thing.

I don't even know if I'm making sense right now, but that's fairly normal.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Everything is a big kink in this fandom. We must be the kinkiest and most awesome fandom in the history of the internet. We are rule 34 /stanning for Torchwood Fandom

But yes, it's when it's a throwaway and used for humour, rather than for the kink, that it bothers me.

[lone-star-woman.livejournal.com]

Okay, because I wrote a Tosh as a voyeur fic a couple of days ago, I feel as though I should respond. And I will admit to being glib about it as I have a tendency to be with most kinks. Heck, I once even wrote a fic about bondage -- something that I don't understand, much less want to take part in -- but it came out as totally tongue in cheek. What can I say? I find most kinks absurd to begin with.* It's not excuse, nor a justification; it's not even an apology. But I don't think I'll use the trope again because well... I don't have an interest in exploring it further at this point.

After reading the other comments, I really don't know what to add. We all have our lines that we will not cross. For me, it's non-con.

Now, is voyeurism something I would actually enjoy in real life? I joke about it, but back in university, I was on the roof of an apartment building with a friend and my roommate. We were just chatting and drinking beer when all the sudden my friend noticed a couple having sex in their apartment. I was the one who freaked out and had a hissy fit while the others watched. Yeah, I'm all talk, and the internet is the place where fantasies get let loose.

*I've also toyed with the idea of writing clown kink because of a footnote I read in Bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex by Mary Roach. That's neither here not there for the purposes of this discussion, but probably illustrates that fic lets out my inner freak.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I probably didn't make it clear enough (damn my brain), but I have absolutely no issue with it as a kink. I didn't read yours because it's just not my thing, but when it's the point of the story it doesn't bother me at all. It's when it's a throw-away line and treated as a joke that it gets to me and triggers flailing rants like this one.

Invasion of privacy as a kink = fine
Invasion of privacy as a joke = THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
My head = fun place to be.

[idamus.livejournal.com]

I have a serious voyeur kink when it comes to Jack/Ianto, but not the spying via CCTV, that's a bit too creepy, no I want someone to accidentally walk in on them, unnoticed, and just not be able to turn around, I do prefer them not having sex but just shoving a caring side towards each other

[citrinesunset.livejournal.com]

For me, this trope is kind of a fine line.

For one thing, I think agree with your differentiation between a kink and a joke. When it feels like it's being written as voyeurism kink, I think that's cool. Same for if the writer gives it an interesting take. When it seems like more like it's being played as a joke and taken for granted as cute and funny, I can see your issue with it.

The feeling I get from this trope sometimes is that Tosh is being used as a self-insert for the writer, and that feels kind of odd to me, too. (Of course, not all fics are like that.)