Am I being over sensitive?

[galadriel1010]

'Miracle Gay'. Not big and not clever. More immature and damaging, actually. If I thought it were a comment on how over the top the gay jokes are and the fact that it comes across as vaguely homophobic, then maybe. But I really don't get that feeling, I think it's more of the 'it's so gay' that's hurting young LGBT people so badly.

Comments

[morbid-sparks.livejournal.com]

If I'm honest, some of the undertones towards sexuality in MD have made me quite uncomfortable. Possibly it's just Rex's homophobia - because that's how he comes across, as a homophobic jerk. And Jack seems to have mutated into being gay, rather than being omnisexual as he always has been. Apart from a hint of brief flirtation with Esther in ep1, he's not flirted with Esther, or with ...the doctor whose name I can't spell or remember. It's all been with blokes.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I've been feeling the same about it. If we take CoE and MD on their own, without the Torchwood history, they come across as a very homophobic canon, which is so disappointing.

[ms-bekahrose.livejournal.com]

I saw your comments on Facebook, and I can't say I am surprised at the response you received from the people you were interacting with. These are the same people who told me John Barrowman was a paedophile, and that Jack - as a character - was also a paedophile, because RTD was too and a whole lot of other bollocks to boot.

I agree with you whole heartedly, things like that (the "discussion" that eventuated on FaceBook, and how they are using the term in such a negative context) just continually perpetuate a cycle of using the term 'gay' as a pejorative.

Yes, there have been some very off colour jokes in MD, especially regarding Jack and his sexuality and insinuations that Rex might be quite homophobic, but, in the same token, I think the audience are made aware that thinking like that is definitely frowned upon by Jack and the other members of this motley crew.

Sorry, just wanted to make that edit so I was a bit more clear in regards to what I was talking about.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I was so mad with them. I don't think that the message is coming across well enough if they're acting like this (not that they've seen Miracle Day, and neither have I), becasue they seem to have got the message that it's okay to make fun as long as you have gay friends or something.

[beesandbrews.livejournal.com]

You've got John's redundant media line that they've really 'gayed up' Torchwood to throw into the mix. Although, from the sounds of it, most if not all of the portrayals have been negative.

Everything about mucking about with the poster read maturity level of 12, so I think you need to take it in that context.

I wouldn't read too much into it, frankly.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I think Gareth mucking about was an alcohol content of 12. He's an idiot, and we've known it for quite a long time.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think MD (and the portrayal of Jack, really) is more offensive than GDL's defacing of the poster. That was...childish, but I didn't find it damaging, per se. I totally took it as a remark on the constant barrage of "this show is gayed up! There is so much gay! Look at all of the gay sex Jack is having! Listen to how every episode has a mention of Jack being gay!" rather than any sort of derogatory thing. I mean, as beesandbrews has said, John Barrowman has outright commented on the apparent "gayness" of this show, which frustrates me to no end; why is that a selling-point!? And why has he forgotten who is character is supposed to be? But then, I'm always easily frustrated by him.

Jack was once an icon whose sexuality, while a part of him, took a backseat to his personality and drive and history. Now, not only has the sexuality been altered, its been brought to the forefront as some sort of caricature, a stereotype that doesn't even make sense considering his past (well, future-past). While I can take or leave Jack, he was brilliant in that regard, I'll give you that much. I liked that aspect of his character, and I hate the constant media portrayal of gay men (and, apparently, omnisexual ones) that they're using in MD. Sexuality is no more a personality trait than, say, hair color or skin tone. They missed the mark on that this season.

As far as what they're doing with Rex, it reminds me a bit of Owen. The difference is that Owen wasn't homophobic (that was pretty much nixed in the first episode - homophobic men generally don't shrug and make out with other men, as far as I know) in the slightest, just a...well, Owen. At least, that's how I took him. He was more apt to challenge Jack's ridiculous stories for their over-the-top nature and the bravado behind them, rather than who the parties involved were. And I think that's what they're trying to achieve to some extent, but it's falling flat.

I don't know that Rex is actually homophobic. Or, if he is, I guess I mean I don't know that he's supposed to be.

So. That's my two cents, then.

[ms-bekahrose.livejournal.com]

I feel dreadful, because reading my comment, I've not made it clear that I am talking about the comments I saw on facebook (I'm going back to edit that in a tick).

I agree that the defacing of the poster was childish, and admittedly, I had a chuckle at GDL's antics, but I just wanted to say I agree - especially in regards to the Owen/Rex parallels.

I disliked Owen until I started reading fan fic, but he never once came across as a homophobe - at least not to me. Rex on the other hand... the insinuation is there, that he is, but it's never outright stated, so for all we know, he could be a live and let live kinda guy, but thinks Jack's jokes are in poor taste?

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the show (what I've heard of it, I'm still not watching it, and partly because of this now) is much worse than what Gareth did. I just don't like the message that he's sent out by doing it and the fact that his fans have picked it up like they're 8 and in the schoolyard.

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're being overly sensitive. You're trying to think out the possible impacts of words, and everyone should do that no matter which side they take in an issue.

But I'm with bees and saria on this: I'd be far less concerned about Gareth's intentionally juvenile antics as I am about the fact he was given such fodder to work with in the first place. I'm SORELY disappointed by all the gay jokes and representations in MD. If it's winking, ironic, tongue in cheek, or something, I'm completely missing the point. Spell it out for me, please, like you did the radical differences in lemonade presentation! Kthxbai.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Spell it out for me, please, like you did the radical differences in lemonade presentation! Kthxbai.

This made me chuckle.

But outside of that I agree with everything you said.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the poster defacing came on top of everything else, and it was then compounded by seeing some SIJ girls (who I normally get on with) using Miracle Gay and telling me I was overreacting when I told them I was offended by it. It's seeing that response that makes me think I was right to worry in the first place

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

And let's not forget about Gwen's bit with the flight attendant - 'you're gay, you are so gay.'

I have to tell you that the Kai/Gareth panel was full of poking fun at JB. And there was a whole bunch of 'gay, he's so gay' stuff - but I do think that was in reference to JB's statements. Was I uncomfortable, you bet. Am I going to post about it, nope.

I had the same problem with the gay remarks in CoE. And I was told that it was 'gay TV for gay people' so I wouldn't get it. Uh OK. You won't catch me calling anything where characters get 'teased' in a similar manner about being Jewish 'Jewish TV for Jews.'

I think part of the problem is that RTD is the only producer (that I'm aware of) that is openly gay. So people want to defend him. But whatever his motivation, I think its really counter productive to have these throw away remarks. Maybe it is 'gay TV for gays' but lots of straight people, particularly young straight people see this - are we suprised when they then think that 'teasing' someone about being gay is OK? Maybe that's why on one of the major SciFi boards there was a thread titled, "ding-dong the queer is dead," cheering on Ianto's death because the show was too gay..with assorted jokes about him 'smelling queer' and 'taking it up the ass.'


I'd like to think that if Philip Roth was the only popular Jewish writer ever that I'd have the guts to say, 'I don't like him, I find him offensive, and yeah, I think he's a self-hating Jew.' Fortunately, I don't have that dilemna because there are many other Jewish writers who aren't IMHO self-hating Jews. But when there is only one openly gay producer I think its hard to acknowledge that he may not be serving the best interests of his community. But, not my call.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Mark Gatiss is also gay and just awesome. There's a lot of gay teasing in Sherlock, but it's never offensive like this.

And 'gay TV for gay fans', what a load of bollocks. It's aimed at the straight male audience just like everything else now. That was the great thing about Torchwood, it found a queer and female fanbase, but apparently we weren't good enough and he had to move on to 'America', which means 'straight, white America'.

I don't know if RTD is self-hating, particularly. I'd go for everything-hating.

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

The one thing that makes me read what you say about the panel and NOT cringe, is that John's usually the first in line to make fun of himself. And they've done this same sort of ribbing whenever he's there, too. He gives it back, and they have a wonderfully teasing dynamic amongst themselves. They turn into a bunch of silly boys together, which makes them quite fun. I just miss John being in it with them.

And there's a whole lot of gay folk who don't get it, either. Being a Kinsey 6 doesn't suddenly grant you understanding that no one else on the scale can have. The only thing that keeps me from flat out turning it off based just on the "gay" stuff is the fact that Jack Doesn't Care. And he usually just throws it back. If he were to start questioning himself, I'd probably throw something at the TV>

[bjewelled.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who works in the UK TV industry, I'll be honest: a lot of people in TVland are gay. As a result, I suspect that TV is probably one of the more gay-friendly environments to work in. In so far as no one gives a toss. I'd be very surprised if the US TV industry was different in that respect. Having not seen the new series, tbh, I can't comment on the overtones or whatever, but RTD really isn't the only openly gay producer. It's just that it's more known to the wider world because he's been in the public eye more.

[eldarwannabe.livejournal.com]

You're inviting discussion and not, I don't know, throwing eggs at his house, so I don't think you're being over-sensitive, no.

That said, I don't think GDL was really making any commentary on MD at all, it was just an easy pun, if probably badly used. He's probably sat in front of Children of Earth posters at cons for yeeeeaaars, and he was just doodling on it for giggles. I don't think his comments were hugely damaging, but I acknowledge that I'm not exactly the crowd that would be hurt. (It also ends up coming across as unfortunate commentary on TW now, but I feel like he's not even watching MD, is he?)

As it seems your whole post has become a discussion about MD rather than the actual poster, I have this sneaky theory that the Torchwood producing people realize they have this crazy set of die-hard Jack/Ianto fans after CoE, and rather than realizing why we liked the pairing so much, just thought we liked the openly gay aspect of it. Hence the over-gayification of the show. This is, again, just a feeling I've got. And yeah, the way the show has been systematically harping on this theme, that bothers me. I can't imagine how other people must feel.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I'm too lazy to egg his house.

What worried me was the fact that people might take it and run with it and use 'Miracle Gay' as the descriptor for it. And that happened, and they told me it wasn't offensive when I told them I was offended.

I am also super cross about the hyper-gay content of MD. I think you're right, that they wanted to keep the Jack/Ianto fans without realising what we were actually fans of. Failboat ahoy.

[kelticbanshee]

Nope, you probably are not being oversensitive... *insert very long, very wordy rant about misuse of words and how people don't realise the impact of it here* I'm afraid brain is too fried for me to elaborate more...

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

That's okay, dear. I could probably insert the rant from what I've been thinking

ETA: OMG that sounded so patronising when I looked at it. It was supposed to be a 'dear' of affection.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I think GDL was just being a child, and it seems that MD has had that nickname for a while, he was there at the end of filming, it could even have been then. I agree that it seems GDL and JB had 14 year old levels of mucking about on set, I mean once you know they texted each other photos of their erections with "you're my bitch" as the message, you really can't expect too much. So I tend to think it's all in good fun, let's face it GDL never behaved oddly about playing Ianto, the way some straight actors do if they play a gay part. (Like the awful chap who played Jack's one night stand in MD )

However I found myself feeling very uncomfortable at the bullying of the air steward. Then the joke about Jack infecting people with gayness. Apart from anything else it's an incredibly dodgy joke after all the years of HIV and the stigma.

So I don't think you are being oversensitive about the way the show is, because I think it is homophobic, and one thing I can't bear is this argument that RTD can't be homophobic, it's crap, people from any group can still be prejudiced.

Don't forget in the first episode of DW with Chris Eccles, Rose says to the Doctor "you're so gay" as an insult. RTD wrote that line.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I actually love that about them. They're so adorable and stupid, and just the way I like my boys - far away and someone else's problem, preferably each other's.

But it's the effect it's had on their fans that pissed me off most. I did not need people on my Facebook friends list using it as a pejorative, and I defintiely did not need to be told that it's not offensive, they just hate the show.

I should ETA my post, but I cannot brain.

[dylantoms.livejournal.com]

My son [who is gay and a month older than GDL] is living with me temporarily. I showed him the poster and he laughed! He is not a TW fan but loves US TV, [we have been watching 30Rock tonight - he downloads] visits there often and has loads of American friends - many of whom, like him, are politically aware and vocal. His partner and I watch TW at some point during the week when there is not much else on ;)
My son though is a cornerstone for me on the whole offence thing... he did not like the Twitter remarks that Dillon Casey made after his scenes with JB when I told him - THAT was offensive.

I thought the poster was funny. The constant 'gay' remarks and snide comments in MD are increasingly tiresome, unnecessary, sleazy and embarrassing. The first two series of TW never did that. JB never went on [and on] about his 'man on man' scenes.
I think that for Gareth, it was a bit of fun he just couldn't resist. There was not the same reaction to the first two series of TW; very little on the homophobic front and the relationship of CJ and Ianto was accepted without comment. I know that he and JB are [rightly] very proud of that.

I have seen most of GDL's con appearances on YouTube and he is diplomacy itself, he has never once made any inappropriate remark about the series, gave away plot lines, let on what was happenning, spoken only with praise of his co workers and writers, made his affection for JB quite clear - and yes, like Kai Owen, taken the piss at every opportunity - but with love and affection always. It is very much the British way. They were also on a high, we [Wales] had just beaten England at rugby...

As for TW:MD it is awful. Jack is a caricature of himself, Rex is an ignorant pig, Esther is beyond bad and Gwen just gets it all wrong per Gwen - so no change there.

And that "I can smell the queer" remark [from CoE] and Gwen's response, I am still totally horrified at HOW so wrong it was and on so many levels.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm gay and... several years younger than GDL (I have no idea how many, but it's closer to a decade than not), and it was just the culmination of too much hurtful 'humour' in a show that I relied on to not be like that.

[angelkitty101.livejournal.com]

Ok, I 'think' I've caught up. The poser.......well, GDL is younger than my brother (which resulted in me having to completely rethink my lust objects, but anyway!), which explains a lot (if you'd met my brother!!). The poster......well, it shows what I've known for a long time.......GDL would look FINE in eyeliner!

As for the 'Miracle Gay' thing, where was the debate? I must have missed it. And I'm not surprised if it's a certain person involved. Considering I've been told that the Dillon Casey tweets were 'just a bit of harmless fun' and getting offended at them was just because I'm oversensitive, not to mention the amount of flack I've taken over Ianto being bi etc..... The whole TW fandom seems to be utter bollocks on the subject of sexuality!

Methinks we need to meet up and chat and put the world to rights!

[citrinesunset.livejournal.com]

I don't know how to "read" GDL's joke, to be honest. I haven't been keeping up enough MD or the behind the scenes stuff (it's too annoying for me) to have an informed opinion on whether or not the "Miracle Gay" thing was was meant to be a witty retort towards the approach MD has taken towards sexuality. I was slightly uncomfortable but not really, because I sort of trust that the context wasn't homophobic. Overall, I found the poster defacing to be funny.

But, I definitely don't think you're over-sensitive. Just because it doesn't bother some people doesn't mean you're wrong to be bothered by it! And I definitely see your point about the joke becoming popular in a bad way.