I am a christian. This doesn't make me evil.

[galadriel1010]

"Sorry, you're wrong. The Christians have set this agenda – they want to maintain their ‘ancient’ right to discriminate against gay people.

They also want to get their hands on as many impressionable and vulnerable young people as they can to pervert them with their corrupt ideologies.

When they renounce their discrimination and stop indoctinating our young with their hurtful oppression we can all be friends again. Simple."

If you know me, you're probably aware that I'm a gay christian. The full deal is gay christian, pro-choice up to a point (if it's started kicking and responding to your voice, then I think that that point has been reached), pro-science, believe in intelligent (and sometimes unintelligent) design, and think that God has very little impact on my daily life. My relationship with God is a little bit like the one I have with my brother - he's just there, and I don't neccessarily like him all the time, but he's still there.

The comment I opened with, directed at me, by the way, was hurtful enough as it was. What made it worse was the fact that it was a reply to me saying, in reply to someone else, that some liberal christians don't feel that they can stand up for gay rights because they feel like they're not welcome. My actual quote was:

"We’re doing what we can, and you’ll probably find christians in the counter protests, but there’s a horrible wave within the gay rights movement that thinks that gay rights have to be gained at the expense of religious rights; I don’t just mean in the B&B and fostering cases, either, but from people who think that christians shouldn’t be allowed to foster children full stop, even if they’re the most tolerant, brilliant parents in the world. It can be quite threatening at times."

And the reply I got was "christians are just determined to discriminate and to bring children up to do the same".

So why don't liberal christians speak up more often? Would you speak up for someone else's rights if they thought that they could only get their rights at the expense of yours, and you knew they were going to give you verbal abuse for being you?

And yet some do, because that's what christianity is, at the end of the day. There's churches doing their best to welcome gay people in (which is hard, because they don't want to come), there's christians showing up to gay pride marches to apologise for the batshit parts of our faith family and to add their support, there's christians working in shelters and as counsellors, as MPs voting in support of gay rights amendments, and as foster parents who give their full support to gay children.

But they don't count, of course, because they believe in the "sky pixie" and so their actions and views are invalidated.

So if you think that I'm worth less because I'm a christian, in the words of Woopie Goldberg as Sister Mary Clarence, "bless you".

Comments

[jooles34.livejournal.com]

I totally get what you mean. People assume that I must be faithless and anti religion because I am bi. I am not. I am a Christian and my faith is strong. I believe in a God of love who recognises that love comes in many forms. It's a weird existance that in day to day life I find it easier to come out as bi than I do as a Christian.

Yes there are those Christians who are still anti-gay, but there are so many who are fully supportive and welcoming. But as you say, the other speak louder so that's all anyone hears. And (this will piss peopple of, but it's just my opinion, I'm not asking anyone else to buy in) I still think there is a huge section of the LGBT community who look for things to be pissed of at and take offence at. These are the ones who only listen to the loud Christian anti-gay movement and ignore the wealth of Christian support that is out there. It's a mentality I've never understood, but run into far too many times. It's why I stopped being active in LGBT campaigning.

I'm really sorry that people have directed their thoughtless comments against you like this.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

It's a weird existance that in day to day life I find it easier to come out as bi than I do as a Christian.

Definitely this.

I still think there is a huge section of the LGBT community who look for things to be pissed of at and take offence at.

I think they're looking for someone to blame more, possibly.

I've brought it up online before on anon communities and elsewhere, and have been told repeatedly that bullying christians doesn't matter because we're the dominant religion. Equality doesn't work like that. It makes me pissy and unwilling to help.

[ms-bekahrose.livejournal.com]

It doesn't make you evil, I think it makes you incredibly brave. I myself am not a Christian (Pagan by choice since I was about 13), but my best and dearest friend is and he is gay. He often gets frustrated by people who are blinded by their own prejudices and start painting others with the same brush...

From my point of view, people who leave comments like the one you opened with, are not at all a part of the solution. Hypocrites of the highest order; touting tolerance and understanding and refusing to lead by example.

*hugs*

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

*Hugs* a lot of people really do seem to think that equality can only be acheived if all religion is eradicated, but they're trying to acheive that by pushing another form of inequality.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

I've known many Christians; some are good and some are bad.

I've known many gay individuals; some are good and some are bad.

I've known many people; some are good and some are bad.

I think people tend to categorize and make strange leaps in stereotypes, so yes, I agree with you! And you're right; somehow this seems to have turned from equal rights to gay rights. I thought equality was the point, always. Where I am the fight for marriage equality fight was fought with clergy of many denominations by our side. The same can be said for the transgender battles. But it's been years since I've been involved and it seems as though things are shifting the world over.

Personally, I was raised without restraint when it came to religion. My parents gave me a broad overview of many doctrines and said "Pick one, or don't, but research before you do!" I've dabbled in religious practices and ultimately determined that I'm spiritual. The same thing sort of happened with my sexuality (although my parents didn't say "Pick one, or don't, but research before you do!" when it came to that...).

I know this seems like a bit of an off-topic rant, but essentially, the idea I'm trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to convey is that I come from an interesting perspective with this. I truly, fully, completely love people and I get so frustrated that others can't just love the complete diversity of the human race. *Sigh*

My coworker is extremely Christian and I admit that people with her fervor initially terrified me. I basically grew up without religion and had grown a bit defensive to the criticism I received for it. I had been in a long-term relationship with a woman at the time, and was only out to one or two of my coworkers then (mostly because I just didn't really talk to them ever at the time). Essentially, she found out and, although she said some things about sin and whatnot, she ultimately accepted me and we're very good friends now. I completely respect her faith, as it gives her hope and guides her to be a good person. And (I think) she completely respects my spirituality and lack of dogma for the exact same reasons.

I think what I'm trying to say (and I'm, pardon the pun, preaching to the choir, I know) is that we're all here and we're all trying to make it and some of us strive to be 'good' and others do not, regardless of sexuality, creed, race, ethnicity, gender, level of education, hair color, or shoe size.

And WOW that was a long, ranty comment. Sorry, love. :-/

*Hugs you tight* I think you're a good person, though, and really that's what matters. Other people see in black and white. Don't pay attention them, because they miss everything in between.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

*Hugs a lot* Long and ranty is fine, it's what LJ's for :)

I don't know why people are so willing to lump people into one homogenous group whilst trying to fight their way out of one themselves. It's something that always tickles me about 'the gay community', actually, because some are sparkly and warm and giving like Barrowman and some are utter twazzocks like the one who made that comment to me, some are kinky as hell and some as vanilla as vanilla ice cream, some are cat people and some probably kick kittens. Just like 'christians' range from Mother Theresa to Fred Phelps, via a lot of people who care to a greater or lesser degree and just want to be allowed to believe what they believe in peace.

[keldaryth.livejournal.com]

*looks for the like button*

Me too. Well, gay christian heretic. I dislike organised religion in general, and most organised christian churches, but then I also dislike Americans when you start lumping them together.

I personally feel organised religion gets in the way of faith, because too often it starts becoming about belonging to the group than living in the light of one's purported beliefs, but um... me tired and hugs.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Most groups are fairly abhorrent when you look at them as a group, because shit always rises to the top and is really, really obvious when you spot it.

And I agree with you about church getting in the way of faith. It's one thing I don't understand about the Catholic faith, this thing about praying to Mary - she was just his mother, and he didn't seem to listen to her all that much when he was alive.

[phyrbyrd.livejournal.com]

I am not a Christian per say - I'm not sure what you'd call me, since I disagree with so much of the Christian schtick that I suppose you'd have to call me a semi-Christian, or whatever. But I've grown up around a lot of Christians both good and bad, and gay people, and trans people, and the conclusion I came to is that if there is a God (the jury's still out on this one, or the nature of said God if there is), he/she/it probably doesn't care if you're gay.
If God is capable in his infiniteness of even percieving us long enough to even register sexuality, it probably doesn't matter to him. I'm of the opinion that odds are good that an infinite, all-powerful, non-human being probably doesn't even understand the concept. We are as mayflies, and all that.
My general morals are based on the fact that I want people to be able to say nice things about me when I'm gone, not that some beard in the sky says I have to be good.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of being able to tell my children that even if I'm not in the room, someone will still see them sneaking biscuits.

And the Doctor is far too much of an enabler to acheive that.

[beesandbrews.livejournal.com]

You seem like you've got your head on straight to me.

I'm always amazed at people who (and I'm using this deliberately) screech about tolerance, yet refuse to show others any. The reasoning is always a bunch of nonsense about 'power' and 'inherent imbalance' etc. Cue the white noise, because all they're doing is justifying their own reasons for being intolerant.

Anyway, nothing else really to say, except maybe, keep the faith.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Darling, nothing about me is straight ;)

But you're right, equality can't be acheived through inequality, no matter how much some people wish it could be. They're playing the blame and punishment game, rather than just trying to redress the balance.

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

So much this!

[hauntingblood.livejournal.com]

Hoorah to you!
I hate that people think that just because I'm an active Catholic that I am all Gay-Bash, Shove-It-Down-Your-Throat, Our-Way-or-the-Highway type of of person.
People put a label on Christianity because all the people see is the bad. People only see the harsh single minded people. Christian guides say that homosexuality is nothing different than having your hair a different colour; that it is not a sin. People however twist the words to say that.
One of the first things of Christianity is Agape (Greek for universal love). This means loving everybody no matter what. Some people who call themselves Christian need to learn this.
I just wrote a paper on this for my faith class too =)

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I love the fact that so many christian churches preach that it's so wrong and that two men or two women should never love each other, and yet the first known gay marriage, I believe, was performed by the Roman Catholic church because Roman law wouldn't recognise a civil wedding, but would accept a church marriage as legal and that would save them from inheritance problems between their families should one of them die.

Unfortunately, the church then went on, a few centuries later, to seriously edit the bible, removing a lot of the pro-women bits and retranslating terms in stories like that of Sodom, where what they were originally condemned for was a breach of hospitality laws (and threatening to rape their guests. Who were angels).

And when I say 'I love it', I mean that the irony and blind cruelty that sometimes goes with it makes me want to cry sometimes.

[laurenthemself]

My relationship with God is a little bit like the one I have with my brother - he's just there, and I don't neccessarily like him all the time, but he's still there.

This. Is. Awesome.

I am so sorry you're having this intolerance directed at you. Stereotyping an entire group of people based upon the actions of the loudest ones is ridiculous.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Thank you :D I nearly channelled Pratchett and called it 'like believing in tables'.

[laurenthemself]

I doubt anyone would've minded a Pratchett reference XD

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

Let's see: Catholic, voted for Sarah Palin (not John McCain), keep a Pride flag in my car window along with stickers supporting various conservative candidates. I believe in Agape. I also believe in personal responsibility, so the long and short of it is: do what you want, but I should not have to pay for it or necessarily like it. That doesn't mean I think someone's evil, I just disagree. Have a code of honor, follow it. Be excellent to each other. Take care of yourself instead of expecting others will do it for you (the Lord helps those who help themselves). And, the more power you give government to decide how lives should be lived, the more power you give government to decide a life should be lived a way you do not believe is correct.

So, yeah 1) WIN for your post and 2) completely understand. If I see one more post talking about tolerance that, in turn, lumps a whole category of people into an ugly stereotype and that displays the very hate they're attempting to preach against, I will scream!

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

Is that a Bill and Ted reference I see in there? XD

Totally off topic, but I had a dream the other day that I was chosen by aliens to be Earth's dictator in some weird takeover where they basically bought Earth out as a franchise and then installed me as the regional manager. I ended up totally micro-managing the place, organising the building of rubbish sorting facilities to increase recycling and doing irrigation projects and hospitals and schools. But one of my first acts was to order RTD to bring Torchwood back with Ianto Jones.

It was a great dream, but I think it was a sign that I've been playing too much Sims.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

LOL, I think you make a good World Dictator. :D

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I would be an awesome world dictator. I eradicated world poverty in about 30 years, reduced deaths from curable diseases to neglibible levels within 10, and brought back Torchwood.

And then the aliens decided that they'd completed that level and were going to move on, and the peopples of Earth rose up against me and sentenced me to death.

It was one of those dreams.

[studyofrunning.livejournal.com]

Sometimes people randomly drop insults to Christians on LJ, and I feel like I'm not allowed to point out that it's me they're insulting because if I call attention to the fact I'm Christian, people will decide I'm here to fight with all the gay people on LJ in spite of never having done so. You sound way more liberal than me, and in fact I do believe that gay sex is wrong (along with a lot of straight relationships), but I really don't care what other people get up to and I can be friends with people who disagree with me. I certainly don't think being gay makes anyone a bad person. And harassing people? Definitely a bigger sin than breaking the rules about who to have sex with. But because there's this loud group out there of people calling themselves Christians and then using the Bible to make themselves feel superior to everyone else, the rest of us get screwed. Those people, not gays, are "the enemy" of the church.

I'm also sick of people making posts like the one you quoted that imply that you have to be tricked into believing in God as a child in order to ever be religious, and that it's some sort of evil conspiracy that causes us to actually tell our own children about our most important beliefs. It's insulting.

People (on both sides) just enjoy feeling oppressed, because that makes them righteous. I'm sorry you're getting stuck in the middle of it all.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I am creating a list of sloganed T shirts I want:
"Get Hell out of my religion"
"Get the hell out of my religion"
"God hates fags. Quit smoking or burn in Hell" (in case that's a local joke, 'fag' is slang for a cigarette.)
"God hates sex because humans keep reproducing"
"God hates sex because he's not getting any"
"You can't go 'gay to Hell'."

And...
"Keep calm and admit nothing", which isn't relevant to the conversation but I wanted to add it anyway.

[studyofrunning.livejournal.com]

Well, I do believe in Hell because that's a big part of why Jesus was here (though you certainly don't get to Hell by being gay, of all things), but "God hates sex"? *sigh* People are so dumb some times.

It, just...even as someone not caught in the middle of it, I find the whole argument headache-inducing.

"God hates sex because humans keep reproducing"

That makes too much sense.

I kind of want a "keep calm and admit nothing" shirt now.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much atheist, but I've only EVER felt attracted to Christianity when it's been explained to me by LGBTQ Christians, or Ally Christians. I find it difficult to take people seriously when they talk about a loving god who nonetheless rejects love between same-sex couples (or triads, etc). When people talk about an all-loving god who does embrace love between everyone who loves each other, however, that makes sense.

In short: I take your faith FAR more seriously than I would the faith of anyone who says that god justifies bigotry.

I don't know if I've linked you to this before or not, but just in case: My Heart Goes Out is a blog by Carol Boltz, ex-wife of Christian singer/songwriter Ray Boltz. They divorced after Ray came out as gay a few years ago, and Carol is now a fierce Ally -- and a fierce Christian.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I sometimes wonder how people can worship a god like that. Because he told them to? The Incas would point and laugh; at least their gods had monkey-demons and regular sacrifices to keep them in order. All the christian god has is a vague threat that you might or might not go to this big fiery place that someone dreamed about on an acid trip before acid was invented, when the whole point of that god was, kinda, that that place didn't exist any more.

So... they're telling gay people "you're going to Hell, which you don't believe in, but this guy you also don't believe in broke the doors down, so really the doors you don't believe in wouldn't trap you in the place you don't believe in anyway"

And the fact that I watched nearly 20 hours of satirical comedy instead of sleeping last night kinda shows

[usakiwigirl.livejournal.com]

You know me, babe, we had a long conversation about this over lunch! I agree, even though I am a Church-going person (when I'm in Las Vegas, at my home church), but I'm totally non-judgmental about spirituality or sexuality or anything. God - or whoever, cause I'm not totally convinced who is out there - loves me and you, just because we are, end of story. I've raised my kids to be the same way. Being gay is not a sin. Loving someone is not a sin. And we are lucky - at our church, we have quite a few gay members, loved and welcomed. Discrimination is not tolerated at our congregation.

I'm so sorry you got hit with that vitriol. Be a duck and let it roll off your back, bb. *hugs and kisses*

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

We did! Why can't we go back there to that lovely weather and that lovely lunch?

I can't believe that love can ever be a sin. And any god who tries to tell you that it is is a douche and doesn't deserve worshipping.

But I will totally bring my kids up to believe that love is fine, they can love anyone they want and as many people as they want as long as everyone involved is happy with the situation and no one is getting hurt in ways that they don't want to get hurt.

But if they try to sneak a biscuit whilst I'm not watching... He has his eye on them, and he'll make a note of it.

God is like Santa, but less expensive.