galadriel1010 | Gwen, an apology

A few of my friends recently have posted in their journals about the amount of anti-Gwen vitriol that they've seen, and wondering why there is so much.

So I, being me, replied, explained why I didn't like her and tried to join the discussion.

I didn't realise it was a rhetorical question. Nor did I realise that there's been a lot of anti-Gwen stuff around, because the fandom places I hang out in are Twitter and my flist. This does not cover any of the major non-fic communities or AGA. I had no idea it was going on. So when I saw stuff in my flist asking why people dislike Gwen... I thought they were honestly asking.

Being lonely, bored and procrastinating, I felt like answering it.

So, basically, I didn't know the context, and I apologise for joining in where I shouldn't have. Apparently the fandom is full of Gwen hate that people on my flist don't want to see. My flist is mostly full of people who like Gwen, and I keep feeling like I have to justify my dislike. I shouldn't feel like I have to, and I shouldn't try. So I'll stop.

ETA: I don't think most of the people I'm apologising to are actually friends with me, so they won't see this.

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I always seem to miss this stuff, I think I must look at the wrong comms or something. I certainly haven't seen any of it.

Thing is, I really don't get why fans get on their high horse so much, but then I think it's because a lot of them are like comic book guy on The Simpsons, that personality type where you have no insight at all and take it all way too seriously. It seems to me that it's perfectly normal to dislike any character, and in fact a good thing, because it makes it more interesting. Series 1 Owen isn't likeable, but people don't get all upset about that. I think RTD and the producers didn't help by going on about her all the time, and I do think there is a strong resentment that RTD just went ahead and killed everyone who wasn't Gwen, which can feel a bit spiteful.

I'm meh about Gwen, unfortunately both JB and EM are weaker actors than the others, so Jack and Gwen scenes often make me cringe with the histrionics. The one where she shows him her engagement ring makes me die it's so awful. I can't watch it.

The other thing that occurs to me is that there is never an outcry about the fans who are into Jack/Gwen and bash Ianto in a way that I think is frankly weird. I came across a meta on one of these fans journals, and she and a lot of her friends were calling Ianto "that thing" and saying how happy they were that he was dead because "that thing is off my screen" . I was quite shocked, if fans were posting that about Gwen it would cause a huge row.

And isn't the cricket briliant!

Sorry to be jumping in, but...

The other thing that occurs to me is that there is never an outcry about the fans who are into Jack/Gwen and bash Ianto in a way that I think is frankly weird.

I think we read the same thing, or at least something that is similar. I was hauled over the coals recently for not having enough Gwen in a Tosh-centric fic, and found out later that one of the people who accused me of bashing Gwen, wrote a fic, where, not just the fic, but all of the reviews bashed Ianto *and* GDL, I just... sometimes the hypocrisy makes me flail like a flailing thing...

Oh that is quite an amazing amount of hypocrisy, and I really hate it when they bash the actors themselves. I mean not for their acting, because that is a matter of opinion, but it's a bit scary and stalkery when it goes beyond that.

Having said I hadn't seen it, I just came across all the stuff this post is about. Like I say, people really do take it all way too seriously. I like discussions and meta, but it's when people get personal that it becomes unhealthy, which is what bothered me when I discovered there is a whole lot of Ianto bashing out there. Now in a way, it's like the AGA, if people want to keep the bashing to their journals or comms, fine, and to be fair the Ianto bashers do this, but as you said, there is no need for it to then go onto your story.

I think I know who you mean... There's someone who's pretty famous for it anyway, and mostly ignored because it's easier than engaging.

I think Gwen's biggest problem really is RTD. And the fact that she's the one who shows more emotion, so she comes across as thinking of herself when the others are hurting just as much because she's the only one who vocalises it.

There are some really vitriolic anti-Ianto people, but I think it's a bit like anti-Christan stuff in a lot of places (got into a huge argument about this, not trying to start it again) where it's seen as sort of okay, because it's bashing the dominant trend, so it's not as damaging or something. Possibly even it's justified because of the anti-Gwen attitudes of some Ianto fans.

And the cricket is superb, I'm now gutted that I didn't go with my instinct and head down there for the morning. Will probably go to day 1 of Sydney instead.

Of course, gosh that was something I hadn't thought of. You are absolutely right. I was reading some of the stuff which prompted your post, and noticed people were saying "go and hang out at Torchwood decaf" and I had never heard of the comm, so I had a look, and it's a comm for anything that isn't Jack/Ianto. Which is fine of course, but clearly feeling the need to set up such a comm when there are general comms to post to shows that some people feel J/I is too dominant. It's kind of daft of course because it's canon, but there you go.

So yes it's OK to "bash" Ianto, or J/I as a pairing, because anything else feels like an oppressed minority. Also I agree that it's seen as politically incorrect to not like Gwen, so again it's therefore OK to be vitriolic about Ianto.

It's very funny to think there is a whole group of people who feel more politically correct supporting a straight pairing, and OK about hating a gay one..

Also I've noticed some fans posting that just because the fans on LJ like Ianto and J/I, that isn't the dominant view of the ordinary viewer. Well how on earth could they know that? Most of my friends watched TW, but I am the only fannish type. They hardly even register the character names, but all of them would talk about how much they loved "Jack's boyfriend, the bloke in the suit" and they referred to Gwen as "the shouty Welsh policewoman" Now some of them in fact really liked Gwen, but they all loved Jack and Ianto as a couple. I think the average viewer that stuck with it, generally liked the way the show went, or they would have switched off. I really doubt they were all out there thinking if only they would kill Ianto and leave just Jack and GWen, then I would enjoy this show.

I love the 'just because the majority on LJ like Jack/Ianto, that doesn't mean that everyone does'. I get to use words like 'statistically representative' and 'logical fallacy'.

As in, it is a logical fallacy to state that the high proportion of Jack/Ianto fans amongst engaged (LJ, forum and ff.net using) Torchwood fans is not likely to be statistically representative of non-engaging Torchwood fans and casual viewers.

Yes absolutely, it is very basic common sense. In fact the most recent place I saw that stated was in the post you were referring to here. It was stated quite forcefully that it is simply not the case that Ianto is a favourite anywhere other than LJ. I have to admit I was floored by that comment. I didn't comment on the thread though, because I did only look at it after this post here, so it had all been a day or so before.

Don't be silly. Ianto is just so invasive that anyone who likes him is absolutely guaranteed to go online and talk about him, so everyone who likes him is represented online, whereas all the 'normal' people don't bother going online.

Gwen, an apology

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