galadriel1010 | Am I being over sensitive?

Jack Kenny who executive produces Warehouse 13 along with David Simkins is also openly gay and even though there is a lot of UST between two of the female characters and an openly gay character joined the cast this season, he has been adamant that orientation is just a part of who they are and not the character's primary focus.

I think that might be one of the reasons that even when the plots are goofy, I still watch it. Torchwood used to approach the issue in a similar fashion, with a side bar of ribbing now and then that was always playfully rude, allowing the characters to be who they are and if they like to kiss boys, girls, both, or what have you - who cares?

The bits of Miracle Day that I have watched seem to had lost their way by defining who someone is, purely based on who they sleep with, but then again, I haven't been too keen on how Jack is written in it anyway, he seems hollow, almost caricature-like.

I tried to give it a go, I really did, but the bi-polar attitude of the writing towards so many issues and the whole ovens in the camps (I am not even going to get started again on that one) just put me off. Throwing random sex scenes in the middle of it to try and "bring back the audience" really isn't helping matters.

As to the poster - *shrug* I think it was meant as a juvenile bit of silliness and no real harm intended. Who knows? Maybe GDL has a secret love of Rocky Horror and was bored.

The thing is......the storyline/writing is /kinda/ good. As in, I need to keep watching because I need to know what happens. I need the payoff. There's just so much about it that's bad. Characterisations are rubbish, generally (the new characters are all fairly stereotyped). There are plot holes - they might end up being explained, but I doubt it. Each episode seems to have a new response to MD from the public (the soulless, dead is dead, etc) and no continuity in terms of that.

It's such a shame, I had reasonably high hopes given Jane Espenson's done so much of the writing.

Nope, you probably are not being oversensitive... *insert very long, very wordy rant about misuse of words and how people don't realise the impact of it here* I'm afraid brain is too fried for me to elaborate more...

I wouldn't take it personally even if it was delivered to you as a personal attack.

I like most of the folk over there, too, but there are a few people who immediately spin everything negatively no matter what. That happens everywhere, just observing that it's there, too. I'm not judging, and I'm not saying they're always wrong, but we do - as humans - seek out that which reinforces our POV. And if we can't find something that does explicitly, we'll take the implicit and shape it as needed.

Maybe they were looking for something new to replace Miracle Whip? :)

The one thing that makes me read what you say about the panel and NOT cringe, is that John's usually the first in line to make fun of himself. And they've done this same sort of ribbing whenever he's there, too. He gives it back, and they have a wonderfully teasing dynamic amongst themselves. They turn into a bunch of silly boys together, which makes them quite fun. I just miss John being in it with them.

And there's a whole lot of gay folk who don't get it, either. Being a Kinsey 6 doesn't suddenly grant you understanding that no one else on the scale can have. The only thing that keeps me from flat out turning it off based just on the "gay" stuff is the fact that Jack Doesn't Care. And he usually just throws it back. If he were to start questioning himself, I'd probably throw something at the TV>

Edited 2011-08-15 18:31 (UTC)

I think what bothers me the most is that its 'heroic' characters that mostly spout this stuff. Gwen (the only thing standing between humanity and doom), Andy and Johnny (the working class heros who fight back at the evil govt, Rex (who I don't think is meant to be a nice guy, but WTF). But no else does, do they? (Not watching so I may not be aware).

I think GDL was just being a child, and it seems that MD has had that nickname for a while, he was there at the end of filming, it could even have been then. I agree that it seems GDL and JB had 14 year old levels of mucking about on set, I mean once you know they texted each other photos of their erections with "you're my bitch" as the message, you really can't expect too much. So I tend to think it's all in good fun, let's face it GDL never behaved oddly about playing Ianto, the way some straight actors do if they play a gay part. (Like the awful chap who played Jack's one night stand in MD )

However I found myself feeling very uncomfortable at the bullying of the air steward. Then the joke about Jack infecting people with gayness. Apart from anything else it's an incredibly dodgy joke after all the years of HIV and the stigma.

So I don't think you are being oversensitive about the way the show is, because I think it is homophobic, and one thing I can't bear is this argument that RTD can't be homophobic, it's crap, people from any group can still be prejudiced.

Don't forget in the first episode of DW with Chris Eccles, Rose says to the Doctor "you're so gay" as an insult. RTD wrote that line.

Speaking as someone who works in the UK TV industry, I'll be honest: a lot of people in TVland are gay. As a result, I suspect that TV is probably one of the more gay-friendly environments to work in. In so far as no one gives a toss. I'd be very surprised if the US TV industry was different in that respect. Having not seen the new series, tbh, I can't comment on the overtones or whatever, but RTD really isn't the only openly gay producer. It's just that it's more known to the wider world because he's been in the public eye more.

It really seems like a NaNowriMo novel, in that they have a decent idea, but not enough time to make it good and too many words in which to write it. Add to that a case of Too Many Cooks and it's... a bit of a disaster. Could be good with a year of reworking, stripping out the sex and explosions that were put in for padding and make the plot coherent.

You're probably right. I think I'm taking it worse than I would have done because it was on Facebook, rather than on LJ, so whilst I expect a bit of fandom flack on here it came out of the blue on there. Not that they don't do it, but it's usually easier to ignore. IDK.

Yeah, that's it. They needed longer to work on it.

As for explosions - Gwen with a rocket launcher? We all know RTD wishes he was Joss Whedon, but Buffy did it with much more style.

That's actually one of the things I loved about Torchwood, particularly the cast. I have quite an antagonistic sense of humour (and personality in general, really), and that sort of bullshitting affectionately is really comfortable for me. Children of Earth and, from what I've heard as a biased reader of blogs, Miracle Day, both depend on a much more slap-stick kind of humour, except not. In the first two series it was funny because everyone argued back. Now it's supposed to be funny because they don't.

I would have gone for 'Pistol Whip'. Miracle Whip is too sweet to be associated with this.

That's okay, dear. I could probably insert the rant from what I've been thinking

ETA: OMG that sounded so patronising when I looked at it. It was supposed to be a 'dear' of affection.

Edited 2011-08-15 20:37 (UTC)

I actually love that about them. They're so adorable and stupid, and just the way I like my boys - far away and someone else's problem, preferably each other's.

But it's the effect it's had on their fans that pissed me off most. I did not need people on my Facebook friends list using it as a pejorative, and I defintiely did not need to be told that it's not offensive, they just hate the show.

I should ETA my post, but I cannot brain.

I really, really disliked Gwen for not standing up for Ianto in CoE. She had recovered herself (msotly) in my eyes, and then Clem called him queer, Ianto was clearly offended and she laughed it off. I like to believe that Ianto would have given her decaff for the rest of her Torchwood employment had he survived.

I'm really not sure what they're doing or where they went wrong. The characters should have been really interesting, but it's like they stuck the labels on without exploring where the labels came from. They're stick figures, and even Jack is paper thin now.

I'd link if I could find it, but the thread is a mile long. There's a good discussion on who_anon about the use of humor in series 1 and 2 Torchwood vs later. The difference being in the first two you were laughing with the characters, and in the later ones you're supposed to laugh AT the characters which is a more mean spirited type of humor. But that goes with objectfication and so on which COE and MD are rife with.

Yeah, I was in there somewhere. Came to it late on account of sleep or something, but it was a really interesting discussion. Whatever the haters say, the Torchwank has kept the meme busy and very interesting lately.

Maybe it'll help, and maybe it won't, but it is possible for words to have more than one meaning. In this case 'gay' has the traditional meaning of 'happy', the older slang meaning of 'stupid' which is the way it's being used here and had nothing to do with sexual orientation (at least it didn't when I was a kid), and the contemporary prefered in some quarters meaning of homosexual.

(It's also possible, and this is pure speculation, that because the inevitable 'cause' of the miracle is going to be Jack and something to do with his past lover, that it's clumsy wordplay spoiler on the plot.)

Edited 2011-08-15 21:03 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings about people on Facebook having a go at my opinions. One of my more geeky techie friends says it's not my page, I don't own it, it's a feed. So I tend to leave the comments unless they are offensive.

One of my relatives who works in film, so has hundreds of friends, made a comment on his fb page that his wife, who has a different surname, disagreed with. Someone weighed in against her with all these personal comments, really insulting her clearly trying to ingratiate themselves with him. So their teenaged daughter went on and said "stop insulting my mother on my father's Facebook page" That really did make me laugh, people are just so unthinking when they get on to social media sometimes.

However despite the issue of people maybe being rude to you on your own Facebook page, I totally agree with the cringing at fans using this as some sort of solidarity against MD. GDL may even love MD, I'm sure it means nothing about that show at all. I hate the way some fans keep embarrassing themselves. From AGA T shirts, to those SIJ manifestos, it's just mortifying.

Yeah, I'd be happy with the dual meaning of happy and homosexual, but the 'bad' seems to have come from it meaning homosexual (in my experience, anyway) and it's hurting gay kids.

If the miracle is because of Jack I will... write that fic where Gwen turns herself into a stick insect and lives out the rest of her life in a jar on Jack's desk. Jack has suffered more than enough already, considering we've only had four series.

I'd get a head start on it. Episode 7 airs on Friday and there's going to be a major reveal.

My son [who is gay and a month older than GDL] is living with me temporarily. I showed him the poster and he laughed! He is not a TW fan but loves US TV, [we have been watching 30Rock tonight - he downloads] visits there often and has loads of American friends - many of whom, like him, are politically aware and vocal. His partner and I watch TW at some point during the week when there is not much else on ;)
My son though is a cornerstone for me on the whole offence thing... he did not like the Twitter remarks that Dillon Casey made after his scenes with JB when I told him - THAT was offensive.

I thought the poster was funny. The constant 'gay' remarks and snide comments in MD are increasingly tiresome, unnecessary, sleazy and embarrassing. The first two series of TW never did that. JB never went on [and on] about his 'man on man' scenes.
I think that for Gareth, it was a bit of fun he just couldn't resist. There was not the same reaction to the first two series of TW; very little on the homophobic front and the relationship of CJ and Ianto was accepted without comment. I know that he and JB are [rightly] very proud of that.

I have seen most of GDL's con appearances on YouTube and he is diplomacy itself, he has never once made any inappropriate remark about the series, gave away plot lines, let on what was happenning, spoken only with praise of his co workers and writers, made his affection for JB quite clear - and yes, like Kai Owen, taken the piss at every opportunity - but with love and affection always. It is very much the British way. They were also on a high, we [Wales] had just beaten England at rugby...

As for TW:MD it is awful. Jack is a caricature of himself, Rex is an ignorant pig, Esther is beyond bad and Gwen just gets it all wrong per Gwen - so no change there.

And that "I can smell the queer" remark [from CoE] and Gwen's response, I am still totally horrified at HOW so wrong it was and on so many levels.

Am I being over sensitive?

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